00:00.01
Dipesh Jain 

Hello everyone, welcome to another episode of Tech in Edtech, ah today we have with us, John Jorgenson. John is the Chief Marketing Officer of Cambium Learning. John, welcome to the show.

00:13.21
John Jorgenson

Oh, thank you so much. It's great to be here.

00:15.91
Dipesh Jain

Thank you, John. So John before we dive into the show, would love for you to give us a little bit of a background about yourself and the company and you know, how you came to where you came to, would love to hear that. 

00:29.84
John Jorgenson

Yeah, I'm happy to, so I started my career just about twenty-five years ago. I started as an editor for a publishing company after I graduated with a liberal arts degree. I needed to figure out what I was going to do, um so I started there. I ended up moving on to do creative work and strategic marketing specifically for K12 publishing imprints and I've been working in marketing and branding ever since. I've worked in finance, the nonprofit sector, and most notably, and most  recently in the edtech sector. I was the Chief Marketing Officer at Carnegie Learning in Pittsburgh and then in November of 2019 came to Cambium to be the Chief Marketing Officer here. So Cambium is ah a portfolio company, we have five businesses that all serve a specific vertical in the K12 space and then we have a large success services group that supports that team. Um, my role as the CMO of a company like that of a portfolio company really is there, there are three parts to it. The first one is to engage the world in Cambium's brand story as an entity. The second one is to work really closely with the leadership at each of the businesses that make up Cambium and and help them do the same for their brands and then the third one, and and the one that that I'd like to talk a little bit more about is helping Cambium realize it’s purpose and when I say that, I mean realizing its purpose both externally and internally. Um. The more that we can you know, really live and breathe our purpose and the more of an impact that we can have on people's lives, the better job we're going to be doing as a brand um, and I say that because we're not making widgets at Cambium, we're an education company. We're helping people to grow, we're helping people to live amazing lives and so that's really how the purpose at Cambium drives us, and first of all, let me just define what I mean by purpose. Um, you know and I'll start with vision. Vision to most people is kind of your point of view, It's it's what you think about the future. Um, it answers the question, what does the future look like not just for you, and for your business but for the world that the business operates within? Mission, if vision is about the future, mission is about your plan for getting there and what are your goals, how you're going to do it. The purpose for us, um, is really a really focused kind of rallying cry, It it's why we exist as a company. Cambium our purpose is intentionally very simple. We exist to tackle what we see as education's most pressing challenge and that is helping all teachers and students to feel, seen, valued, and supported, that really is our north star. So the products we design, the experiences we deliver, the way we work together again, it's both external and internal. Um, we we try to bring that purpose to life both externally and internally. That's absolutely what we're focused on, it's what drives us and so, when you think about my role as CMO of a company with a purpose like that you know, you could probably call me a Chief Brand Officer or you know, even ah, maybe a Chief Purpose Officer because it really is about reminding people of what that purpose is, why it matters, how they um can see themselves in it. Um, and again, that's not just our employees, it's for the people that we serve too. So um, so that's really what makes us special, I think is we are despite being a portfolio company, a collection of very different brands and organizations. We are a single entity that is that is kind of aligned by that purpose.

04:06.98
Dipesh Jain

Love it um, John, I think you've unpacked so many things over there. I wish I'd learned this vision, mission, purpose from you rather in my, rather in my MBA. Yeah, it just it just made so much sense there, I really really like what you just said. So much to unpack there, but let me let me actually start from the beginning. One thing that I really like about Cambium um, see I’ve played a marketing role myself, right? Managing one brand itself is not easy, right? Managing and growing a brand. There are 2 types of companies that I've seen, especially group companies, one where the brands are so strong that the group brand isn't really there, people really know the individual brands, and then there are second type of companies, where the group brand is very strong um, you know there but the individual brands not very much and then there is a third type of companies ah, where both of them are like strong, give an example like Procter and Gamble. Everybody knows P&G but the individual brands are also pretty popular, but you know I've seen a lot of that in the consumer products, good but I've I have not really seen that in B2B code. Cambium is an exception, according to me, like I know that you have a very strong brand as a group company but you have some amazing brands like Learning A to Z, Explore, it's it's amazing to see that? What is your thought on that? Like I just wanted to share my observation.

05:31.46
John Jorgenson

No, I think all of your observations are the same observations I had when I got started back in 2019. I definitely identified the different possibilities um, and I think you're exactly right, I think it is hard. I think there's there's no way around saying that it's difficult to accomplish all of those things. I think that's why having a purpose like we do, especially being in the education space, It's really important that we have a clear sense of why we exist and why what we do matters. But not at the expense of the distinct value proposition that each brand has for the audience that they are serving. So um, we have to do both right? like we have to make sure that the business unit and the product brands that make up that business unit, in those teams, they feel that they are a strong brand, they are the best in class for the vertical that they are serving and, we want them to feel like you know what, it's also great that we're part of this Cambium Learning Group because that group stands for something like it makes sense that we are part of a portfolio with other businesses because we all believe in the same things, we're speaking the same language and so my job as I mentioned at the beginning is is to accomplish all of that. It's to make sure people understand what makes Cambium special as a collection, as a collective probably is a better word for it. But then also, how do we continue to to strengthen each business and help them feel like they are as strong as they can be because they're the ones ultimately who are working with customers and creating innovative products and you know having an impact on the ground and so we want that to be as strong as we possibly can. So It's difficult you know, I think um, it it takes a lot of time. It takes a lot of understanding that this isn't about making everything Cambium, this isn't about ah you know, Cambium having all the answers. This is about Cambium really being of service to the businesses so that they can be ah, continue to be great businesses, and continue to grow. So, not easy, there are all sorts of examples of companies that that I think are trying to do it and are struggling with it. We're certainly not perfect but I do feel we've got real clarity and alignment about this is what Cambium is about and this is our role as as a portfolio for these businesses.

07:55.70
Dipesh Jain

Right, and and that can be very, you know, you're right, that can be difficult to achieve and I want to double click on that piece. You know while aligning all these things together, It is a good state to achieve but it can be very difficult to drive this companywide, right? you’ve mentioned. So what, what does it take to do that, like what does it take to drive this purpose across the products and portfolios like you know, just if you can go a little bit more on the in-depth of that like how do you do that?

08:27.40
John Jorgenson

Yeah, no I think that's a really good question and it's amazing, how much time we do spend internally not just externally and so when we when, we kind of rallied around that purpose of helping all teachers and students to feel seen, feel valued, and feel supported. Um, we also thought to ourselves, well we need our employees to feel that too. We have ah, we have a responsibility as a brand to have all of our employees feel that they are valued just as much, that's important for existing ah staff, certainly important because we're a very fast-growing scaling business and so we're hiring, you know hundreds and hundreds of people every year, and so we have to attract the best talent. It's very competitive and so we have to make sure that we are you know, truly embodying that purpose and so um, that's great like it sounds really great, I think people get it but it ultimately um, you know It does beg the question, okay, but how do you do that? You know I think a lot of people kind of stop with with why they do something, stop with their purpose and they don't they don't kind of continue by explaining how they're going to do that. We identified that as we started to dig into the brand work ah, in 2019 we identified three things that we we knew because people told us both internally and externally mattered most to them and we called them our essential elements. These are the essential elements that are, that if we If if these are are how that we really invest in and deliver on our purpose will happen and those three essential elements are simplicity, certainty, and now. On the external side, simplicity you know education just continues to get really really noisy, more complex especially in the last couple of years and for years teachers have told companies like Cambium you know, just give me solutions that solve an actual problem I’m having in the classroom. You know, I need help with proficiency and student well-being, I want simple solutions to those problems and and you have to give me solutions that are so simple I actually want to use them. So simplicity was one thing they told us about, certainty is another. Again, there's so much uncertainty in the world, especially um, you know as we've gone through this pandemic for the last couple of years. And you know ultimately students, teachers, administrators, parents, all of them are they're human beings, they want to feel you know, that they're safe and secure like what they're doing actually works. You know they want to be able to count on partners like Cambium to deliver on what they promise, they want to feel confident that what they're doing is making a difference. Um, so that that feeling of certainty is something that we knew we needed to to prioritize. The last one is now and you know education, and a lot of industries but especially education, they talk a lot about historically it's talked a lot about the future. You know, like getting kids college and career ready and growing the leaders of tomorrow and you know all these grand statements about the future. But you know we believe that ah the future doesn't really, it doesn't really exist. Um, I mean all you have is the present moment and so if we do the most we can in every present moment to make every teaching moment as powerful as possible and then do it again the next day, and the next day, and the next day, that's how we try to build that future um, that education talks about so much. So Simplicity, Certainty, Now, we also again take these elements internally, so we try to keep everything as simple as possible. The way we communicate with our teams, the way we develop plans and priorities, we always want to be as simple as we possibly can. So there's no doubt about what's most important, the same thing with certainty, we want our people to feel safe like they're in the right spot to do the best work of their careers and they're being cared for, um, and then you know the idea of now, I think a lot of leaders again talk about you know we're going, we're going to this place out in the future and you know that's yeah, having an aspirational vision is great. It's it's certainly something that is helpful but I do think it's it's most important to approach each day and say how can I help this team that I am in service to ah be as successful and feel as certain and simplify you know, what their priorities are today and so we try to bring those three elements internally, try to live them externally, the products we build, the services we provide. If we stay focused on those essential elements, we believe that's the way we're going to realize that purpose and we're all going to feel, both internally and externally, people are going to feel seen, valued, and supported. So that's kind of the next layer of the question of how we do that and I spent a lot of time talking about that, just because it is not something that you often see usually people stop with, you know we exist to help all students realize their potential and we're going to be best in class, and we're going to be you know the employer of choice, you know they use all of these words that everybody uses but they always you know they often fail to answer the question, okay, well, how are you going to do that? So, I spent probably more time talking about the how than the why.

13:35.9
Dipesh Jain

Yeah, that's you know, I ah so amazing to have these three elements, right? Ah simplicity, you know we all know it. It is easily known, it's very difficult to achieve especially in today's day and world, It's it's not easy at all. I especially like the certainty bit and this becomes very relevant in today’s day and world, where you've seen things change overnight. you know I was reading something yesterday about the mortgage rate. Um, you know somebody if you bought a house in 2021? you're paying it a mortgage of you're paying a certain mortgage today. The mortgage is so high. I’m saying there's so much uncertainty around us that having that certainty is so so valuable like you know it's and human beings we we crave certainty, we crave some amount of predictability. So I really, I did want to mention that. I really like this second element of certainty because it just clarifies a lot of things and all of these three combined together, if I'm an employee I'm thinking about it right? If I'm an employee if I'm sure I think if you have these kinds of elements then every decision is bound around these elements. So so I think, thank you for detailing that out, that's really really helpful.

14:44.70

John Jorgenson

Yeah that's a really great way of putting it and that's, I think about our purpose and then those three elements as as our filters, right? Like when we make decisions about um things we're going to invest in or things we're going to prioritize that often is the question. Is that going to make our purpose stronger? Is that going to, does that align with those essential elements? or you know maybe maybe it's a little too complicated or maybe it's going to you know create ah a bunch of uncertainty or maybe it's you know, just going to deliver something, maybe you know, five years down the road. Um, it's a great filter for us to make decisions, and um and you're exactly right, I think that works both at the Cambium level and at the business unit level as well.

15:26.81

Dipesh Jain

Yup, now I think I'll take a step like I want to kind of take an outward look at it, look at what is happening in ed tech today, right? Um, so we've seen a lot of consolidation, lot of M&A activity happening in the past two years more than ever before and we'll see, I think I see I foresee it happening more and more in the coming day and months and years. The question to you is, what is your you know with all the consolidation that has happened, what should the marketing leaders and even the general leadership in companies expect when they unite these products because each has its own culture, each has its own ethos, like how do you do that piece? You know, let's say if I'm a new company and I'm acquiring a company, what is your advice? How do you bring all of that under a single umbrella?

16:19.55

John Jorgenson

Yeah, so I think for us we are very disciplined, you know we look at um, we look at acquisition possibilities every week and in the last three years, we've made three acquisitions and the reason we've been so so picky about that is because, again, if it's, it might be a great company, It might have a lot of potential but if it doesn't fit with our purpose um, then that's not something that we're we're ultimately going to be interested in. So um, you know we talked about filters just a couple of moments ago and and I think about this, in the same way, we have a very clear rubric that we use when we think about how do we grow through ah M&A. Of course, we're always working to to grow organically and have had really good success doing that but um, growing inorganically can get you where you're going faster and if it's the right kind of acquisition to get get there better and make your whole organization better, so um, we look at this rubric. First of all, does it fit? You know the idea is it, is it aligned to our purpose? Is it aligned to those essential elements I just talked about? Ah, also is it a K12 digital company?  We are, we are certainly we have services, certainly, we have some print products but we are first and foremost, an education technology company and so that's something that is really important to us. A second thing is we are looking to make an impact and to scale quickly so we don't tend to be as interested in ideas or things that require significant investment or a significant amount of time to get to a place where they're having an impact. So, we really look for sizable additions to the portfolio. Um. We're also looking for companies that are just very healthy and profitable and can help not just you know, by joining Cambium we don't want them to just grow faster, bigger, better. We also want them to help Cambium become better and and we've definitely experienced that with the three acquisitions that we've had thus far. Um, so is it growing? is it profitable? and yeah, the last piece is and this is where it can get difficult because a lot of times you can look at an addition to a company and they they align to your purpose, good company um, you know they're profitable, they're growing, but the the one question that that we spend a lot of time on is, is this brand the best that it, is it the best brand at doing the job that it's hired to do? Is it best in vertical? Um, we we really stay focused on that because we feel that if we don't have the absolute best company with the best value proposition in each vertical that's going to be um, challenging. So, we're you know stated simply, we're looking for the best of the best. I think we we definitely are never willing to settle and I think that's had a lot to do with our success. There are other companies that acquire a lot more companies than Cambium does and um, you know thinking one plus one is always going to equal three or four or five, and often it's you know, one plus one equals one and a half and it causes a distraction um, they try to integrate the company in a way that isn't natural and then the reason you were attracted to the brand in the first place, what made it so special and why people loved it, gets lost. So um, we don't want to do that. We want to help make each brand better, and faster, and have them help Cambium get better. So I think there's just a level of discipline there that is something we're committed to and I would definitely advise others to do the same

19:51.80

Dipesh Jain

Yeah, I did have a question on the last, like you mentioned the best of the best, right? How  What are the sort of things that you look for in a brand that is best of the best? Ah, there are subjective elements, I'm sure there are objective elements. But what are some of those parameters that you would say make somebody the best brand in that space?

20:18.37

John Jorgenson

Yeah, I think you're you're absolutely right. I think you know objective elements like efficacy and research to show, you know does this product actually work and I don't mean just could it work, you know does it have science behind it but is it working in real classrooms because these products need to be usable and they need to be practical and they can't just be you know, they can't be overengineered, they can't be overcomplicated. So, um I think it's really important that products actually work and solve the problem that people are are paying money to have, to help them solve. So I think you know I think that's a part of it, I think the people are part of it, I think you aren't just buying a product or a brand or um, you know a set of customers, you you are buying a team and you're wanting that team to help you get better and to yeah, and you want to be able to offer them something to help them get better and so um, I think it's important that you think about the people, certainly the leadership but all the way down in the organization. You know, do they have really really great talent? And do they have the ability to attract great talent? So, you know I think those are the two most important things um you know, of course, if you have great talent and you have ah a really really great product, you're going to have um success, so you know they're going to be disciplined, they're going to be profitable. They've got, they're going to have an eye on growth because they want to have an impact. Um, so It's it's a mix of those those objective things but also, this objective and the last thing, I would say to it is and this goes back to fit, you know when you meet with companies sometimes everything on paper seems um like like it should be a no-brainer, It should be a a definite addition but you know, you get to know each other, you spend the time to do that and sometimes you just don't speak the same language, you don't have the same aspirations and the same priorities and you have to be willing to walk away from those things because um, it's when you come together that the great work really starts to happen. It's not just about tucking something in and then having it continue on its trajectory. You're you're bringing something on board because you see a potential there that wouldn't be there if they stayed separate and you didn't um, you didn't come together. So you have to, you have to be able to work together to do that. So I think that's that's kind of that feel part or that um you know, that that more subjective part to say, you know do we want to work with these guys? You know do they do they get it? Do we believe in the same things? and um, you know all of those things combine to, ultimately you make a decision to say, yeah that this is, this is best in class and this is the company that is in the best position to do that job it's hired to do and so then you start digging in with the diligence but um, but it has to it has to satisfy all those criteria first.

23:10.64

Dipesh Jain

Great! I think this section was a crash course in M&A and a very good one at that. I really appreciate all the inputs, I was I think I’ve made two-three pages of notes already. So that was great. Um, one question which is very important, something that even I kind of you know think about, and especially this is very important for education, any company in the education space. You are You have a very strong purpose. You are there to solve some really really relevant issues. Um, you know, now how do you balance that? like you know the you know I I'll take ah I'll take something that you said you your thing is, you want to help all teachers, students right? feel cared for, feel supported, so there is a level of effort that you put behind the purpose, behind the products that you develop and behind your go-to-market and how do you align that with revenue expectations right? Like what would you, you know what does that balance look like? Like okay, we have this revenue expectation and then we have these, this is what we are trying to solve. How do you make sure that both of these align and you know, what happens when they don't? What are the things that you do in that case?

24:25.48

John Jorgenson

Yeah, you're right. I think we ultimately are are in the business, business, right? We're wanting to grow and scale Cambium and we want to add things to it and make investments in it that will help us do that and so ah you know, I think it really goes back to a lot of what I just talked about I think there's a level of discipline that's required to say, yeah, this might be a great opportunity in the moment, um, it might be a need that is ah you know there's suddenly a bunch of funding for or there's um, you know a demand for ah, and and it doesn't mean those aren't things that are, you know often worth pursuing. But I think if you stay committed to ah why you exist as a business? If you stay committed to helping your various go-to-market teams be as competitive and supported, and um you know just healthy as possible then that's going to be the way that you you impact, um, top line and bottom line. You know we are very focused at Cambium on bookings growth and cash income growth and making sure that we um, are having an impact and so we're constantly looking at all of those things to say um, are we accomplishing all three? If we if we were growing bookings and we were growing cash income but you know that it's great to grow a business, It's not easy to do um, and it's certainly very very important. But it's not the, it's not the end game, It's not the end result. The end result is that you know why are you doing that, why does any of that matter because if you're not a company of scale, your impact is going to be minimal, and ultimately people that work in education um, are people that care. They care about having an impact, they see things that are um, in need of attention and could be better and they see kids that are you know sense that their sense of well-being and their proficiency isn't where they'd like it to be. They see teachers that are struggling to feel respected as professionals and supported, and so If we're not having an impact on those things then, there really isn't, um I'm I'm personally not interested in that. That said, it's not an either-or right because that means we have to have a really healthy, growing, profitable business that is of scale if we're going to have that kind of impact. So I don't see them as being in conflict with each other, I see them as being you know they are, they're inextricably connected and we can't, we can't try to disconnect them if we want to continue to have an impact and grow a business that's healthy and satisfies investors and gives people great career development potential and all of that. So I get it, that sometimes again the opportunity can pop up again, you have to be willing to say no to things that yeah, maybe there's an opportunity to have some gain here. But, if it's not in alignment with where we're going and who we want to be, what our DNA is, you have to be willing to say no to those things and stay committed to the things that you feel matter most.

27:27.11

Dipesh Jain

Yeah, I really like the lengths of impact right, I mean at the end of the day you will have a bigger impact if you have the resources for that impact, and for you to have the resources, that discipline is very very important. Um, and I think I think that impact of education is what is what is what should be should be one key north star to kind of focus on that you know, are we having, do we have enough to have that kind of an impact. So I think that's that's great. So, thank you for that and you know you probably have a big team under you um, what you know you have so many brands, you have teams that are managing those brands, and the marketing teams. What kind of support do you provide at your level to these teams, like you know what is, what do these teams come to you for? What is your guidance to them? How how do you manage that, those teams, and their directions?

28:24.15

John Jorgenson

Yeah, well. Well, first of all, I don't have a big team, at all. I have ah a role that I play and I have a budget that I can use in different ways and so the team that I have structured is um, a collection of ah, you know, creative and strategic and communications professionals. So we have a branding agency that is um that we work with every day. We have ah a PR firm that we work with every day, I've got a filmmaker that I work with every day so I have this collection of people that are um, helping me to accomplish you know those three things that I mentioned about helping the Cambium brand, helping the business brands, and also bringing the purpose to life internally and externally. Um, that said my role is um, it doesn't stop there you know I do work really closely with the leadership at the different businesses and with the leadership within success services, which supports the the whole organization. So um, you know I I what I have to do is I have to work in a very consultative um, kind of more of a consultative coach and mentor than anything else. You know I don't want to take autonomy away from the VPs’ of marketing or the presidents at businesses, I want to help them and so often I'll come to them and say hey, how can how can I help this team that I've assembled?

29:55.36

John Jorgenson

Um, we're here for you. How can we help you accomplish what you're trying to do? And that's that's what we've done. We kind of have um, it feels a bit like we're on tour sometimes where we'll go spend you know four or five months with a business and help them rebrand their company or help them to um, you know, just rethink the way that their brand is positioned in the market, and then help them to to bring that to life and so we've done that, we've done that with um, ah, several businesses at this point. In addition to doing it at the Cambium level and you know for me I just again, I always think about you know how can I, you know servant leadership is like an industry buzzword but I think especially for this role at this kind of company I need to always lead with being of service because I really am only able to be helpful um to the businesses and you know do the best I can at the Cambium level as well. So I try to be of service, you know I try to just um, build trust and to bring trust with me to those conversations. You know it, It definitely takes time, ah to to do things that way you know often you know people might think it's easier to just come in and say okay well you know you're part of Cambium now so this is the way it's going to be. Well, that's not what Cambium is about and so I believe that if again if I am led by that purpose of trying to help people feel seen, valued, and supported then that helps me make decisions about where I get involved, where I don't get involved um and how I can be most helpful? So you know, I really just stay committed to those things in a lot of ways. This is the most complex job I've had because of everything I just described. In other ways, It's the simplest because I'm not, I'm not in the midst of the day-to-day as as I'm sure you are of, you know, go-to-market work and um, yeah, know everything that goes goes along with that. I'm trying to help this business tell its story to a variety of audiences and I'm trying to help the teams that are responsible for their own stories to get, get where they're going faster and so it's great, right, like I I get to come in and I get to say hey, you know I've got this great team, we can help you, let's do it and they're excited because they feel supported. They feel valued because I'm not telling them what to do I'm kind of co-sponsoring work with them. So I think that's, it's it's very unusual and it's not a job that I probably could have done you know ten years ago, it's something that as I have as I worked no longer yeah, my career has has gone in different places and I just feel very comfortable um playing that role and I really enjoy it but it's quite rare.

32:33.76

Dipesh Jain

Yeah, it is rare. I mean you actually bang on, I was thinking of the same thing, right? It is simple but it can be very complex as well, right, because you have multiple. So yeah, I mean it it is a rare role and and it's great to hear ah your thoughts on just being a co-sponsor ah, versus trying to say hey, this is the guideline that we have, you know that that kind of conversation doesn't help anyone. So, So yeah I think that that was great, that was a great insight. Um you know I think we are kind of at the end of the show but before we wrap up there were a few questions. One important one is where do you see the tech companies getting it wrong? You know one thing that you mentioned, I want to link it with one thing that you mentioned right at the beginning, that you're not making widgets um and that's so you know it's ah it's a simple statement. It's so profound because a lot of times what I see is hey, this new fancy tool, this AI to help, It's just that thing of feature building or product building versus helping learners is, I feel that sometimes it it really, we miss the mark when it comes to ed tech. What are the things that you see going wrong?

33:48.36

John Jorgenson

Oh my! Um, we only have a few minutes, you said? Um, so I think actually I see lots of things going right. There are a lot of great companies out there but yeah, I do see some things you know, the the Founder of Learning A to Z, one of our our Cambium businesses, his name is Bob Holl and he he founded the company. He retired a couple of years ago and I worked with him for several years at the Learning A to Z level and um, one of the things that I learned from him is something that I think, it again seems deceptively simple, and yet I see so often it never comes up um, when I hear other brands talking. The thing with Bob is, you you would be in a room with him um talking about whether it's product development, customer experience, whatever it might be and he invariably would start. Before he would start talking, he would say kind of say out loud, he would say okay, I'm a teacher um, so what do I need, so what problem do I have, he would always be looking to put himself in the place of of a teacher in a classroom which he had experience in, many of the people in the room often had experience in and so um I think it's really important to not forget that, to not forget and and that teacher can be different things now right? You know there's homeschooling, there's virtual schooling, there's you know state-level things that are happening so it's not always just about a classroom teacher but it was that that reminder to say don't ever lose sight of that, so um, that's one thing. I think another thing is something I mentioned a second ago which is profitability. Um, you know I see a lot of as I'm sure you do, a lot of like you said the you know the startups and you know the the next shiny thing and the beautiful pitch deck and um, you know the promise of amazing things to come and  magic and all of that and um.

35:40.49

John Jorgenson

That's fine, but you know let's talk about you being a responsible, healthy, profitable business that has a plan. You know it's not just about um, getting a million users who who love your product, um, that's wonderful and it's not easy to do. But if you don't then have a plan from there to scale that business, so you can continue to delight those million people and then attract ten million more. Again, It's not about usage that's just a step in the right direction if you want to be able to have an impact and you can't do that if you're not profitable. So um, I think that that's something that that companies, either, because they're they're just missing it or because it truly isn't what they're interested in. Um, they they miss how that how important that is um to to scaling and to having an impact. The last thing I would say is focus, you know, Simon Sinek we talked a little bit about why earlier, Simon Sinek you know famously talked about starting with why and the the problem I see with many edtech brands is that that's where they stop you know as if their why is enough for everyone else and it's not. You know this is um, this is education, we all have a grand purpose and we all have a why about helping people and helping the world and all of that. But you know your why only matters to the people you're trying to reach if it helps support their why and you can't be everything to everyone that you're trying to connect with. You have to be really clear about your focus and what value you bring, you have to have a real clarity again around your own purpose because that's how you can then connect to the purpose of others. So you know I think that idea of being focused and disciplined as well being profitable again, and disciplined as well um and then also just making sure that you are solving real problems and staying connected to the teacher and ultimately the people that you exist to to help. Those are three things that I see a lot of companies that do all those things really well, other ones that don't seem to think about any of those three things. It's all about you know the the pitch deck and the investor meeting so um, anyway, those are three things that immediately come to mind when you ask about things I see going getting wrong.

37:55.80

Dipesh Jain

Now I think what I like about those three things are, they're not independent like I think if you get it right for teachers, a lot of the other things follow. What I see happening is you know, do we understand teachers really well? Do we understand the students really well? And are we creating for them? Because if you do that, the adoption increases, the adoption increases, and the rest of the things will follow. I a lot of times you know it's just that basic element of, are we building it for, I mean I was reading some report of how many apps or how many products do the school district have today and so like the number is crazy right? So you know it, it is just mind-boggling to see all of that, and then when you bring something else like is it is it going to solve the problem? Is it going to exacerbate that problem? So I think I think you're absolutely right on those three things and but I feel that there are a lot of there is interdependencies, if you get it right for teachers, I think a lot of other things follow. So yeah I think that's great before we wrap up. Um, what are the things that John, what are the resources that you read? What are the, to keep yourself updated on what is happening in learning and Ed Tech in general? What are some of those resources that you follow?

39:15.29

John Jorgenson

Yeah, I, you know I think there are like three categories of those things. I think first of all, um, you know Cambium is a very big, diverse and complex organization and you know we have somewhere between 2500 to 3000 employees and yeah I can't spend um, too much time just getting to know everybody and their experiences and asking questions and learning and trying to to be of service to them. So, you know I spend a lot of time internally but of course, that you don't want to only do that, so on the external side um, you know, being part of organizations, ed tech organizations, um boards that that are in support of the ed tech industry um, doing ongoing research and kind of media, ah, outreach those are all things that you know I personally try to prioritize and to stay connected to. It really is about staying connected to what's happening um, and there are all sorts of ways of doing that. Um, I think the third thing and and this might be the most important one is um and I hate to call it networking because that that sounds so self-serving. But I think it's about viewing other marketing and leadership professionals um, as colleagues. You know, even if they work for a competitor, you know I spend I always spend time at events I go to and even just from week to week staying connected to other Chief Marketing Officers, other Presidents of companies, other product people um, and again not just even in the ed tech industry but outside of the industry. Maybe even especially outside of the industry because um I need to stay connected to creative people, you know designers, people who think about the future, writers, storytellers like these are all people that I need to stay connected to because I need to push myself to to get better and to grow and and to be part of a collective. You know I think it's so easy to think that you know I'm just part of the Cambium team and anybody who's not part of the Cambium team um, you know I just need to view them skeptically, and not um try to connect with them and that's that's the last thing that I want to do like I want to be part of a larger collective. Again, It goes back to us being an education in ed tech, if Cambium does everything perfectly. We're still just one company, you know we have huge challenges for students and teachers and parents and and the only way those things are going to change is, if we we think of ourselves as a community and of course, there are certain lines you do not cross. We all have our roles to play within our respective companies but um, but I think thinking about the external world differently and viewing each other as colleagues and as partners um, I think there's a lot, a lot more that we can do there and I certainly spend a lot of time there just trying to grow those relationships.

42:08.78

Dipesh Jain

I  really love that advice and I'm actually going to take that, take that from you ah because you're so right, right? It's it's sometimes that mindset of collaboration versus competing you know it. It can be so powerful because people have ideas. You know there are and there are people on the other side by the way willing to collaborate as well like I think I think that's so powerful. I'm definitely going to take that from you. Ah, one question that I have and I'm going to put you on a spot here. Tell me something that's not there on your profile and I don't see on your profile, that you would like to share.

42:45.37

John Jorgenson

Oh my. Um, well you know what, so several years ago um I just ah you know I went went through some some difficult things in my life and I remember um there were two things that that somebody told me. They said first of all um, don't underestimate the power that a life of integrity holds for you and I didn't know what they meant at the time, but in the years since then, everything I just talked about you know for the last half hour or so is connected to that. You know my integrity as a person, as a professional, I try to be driven by that that's really where the purpose comes from, that's the integrity of our business and so um, as you said so eloquently earlier um that then becomes it makes making decisions easy, right? Because I can say well is this making me feel like my integrity is being strengthened here? Um looking in the mirror is this the person that I want to be um, okay, well follow that, and if not even if there seems to be some payoff you know, don't follow that. So I think that's one thing I think and and the second thing is is connected to that to a degree. You know I um, I remember hearing ah this person also told me they said hey, do you know when you go on an airplane and when they're doing the cross-check at the beginning, they always tell you that if the oxygen masks come down that you're always supposed to put it on yourself first before you try to help other people. Um, I think that's really really important and what that means to me again this goes back to the integrity thing is if I, so if I focus on really knowing who I am, what my motivations are, what things I'm good at, what things I'm not so good at, what things I like to do, other things I don't like doing as much if I if I'm really honest about myself about who I am um in focus there then I'm in a position to go be helpful. I'm in a position to go be of service to businesses and to brands and to say okay, here's where I can help you can't help you with this other stuff because I know that this isn't something that I'm particularly good at. But. I'm really good at these things and I can help you here so um, you know I've got to put my own oxygen mask on first, I've got to be willing to be clear on what it is I'm good at, what I'm passionate about before I can help others with those same things.

45:09.88

Dipesh Jain

That is, those are so powerful and you know when you spoke about your first integrity and you know looking in the mirror, you know I've I read this book recently by David Goggins, I’m sure if you've heard of him but it's amazing, he talks about accountability mirror and he talks about how you look in the mirror and be true to yourself like okay, just be brutally honest to yourself and that's been very very It's been a very motivating thing for me and the second thing I so relate to it because you know what happens is you think that it is selfish but it has to be selfish, right, because if you don't take care of yourself, nothing else matters.

45:46.85

John Jorgenson

Right.

45:48.28

Dipesh Jain

You know you could be, you could have the best intentions on this earth but if you're not in your best state there's no way your intentions are want to be achieved. So I, you know sometimes we just underestimate and we just start thinking that okay, am I being selfish? But yes, sometimes you have to be selfish otherwise, even your family wants you to be selfish. So so I think that's that's that's wonderful. It was a great time. It was an amazing conversation, John, thank you so much. Before we wrap up, just the last piece, anything that you would like to, any advice that you like to give to people, and also where can people find you.

46:25.70

John Jorgenson

Ah, well people can find me on Linkedin, they can ah send me an email, ah you know I put them to CMO at Cambium Learning Group. You can find my contact information there, I'm happy to to talk with anybody about any of these things. I hope it's coming through how much I love talking about these things. Um. You know I I think that just ah, ah, the last thing I would remind people of, and this is really specific to to marketers but um, but also to to leaders as well I, you know I sit in a lot of um meetings and conversations and talks that people give where they they really dive deeply into things like data and um, you know psychometric profiles, and technology, and smart creative and all of that and I, you know I love kind of geeking out on those things too as a marketer, as a leader and I think things should be data-driven um, but the the last thing I would say is that I I often find myself asking the question. Um, okay, I understand your data but why does that matter? Um, you know I understand your metric, why does that matter? Um, and I very often just get, you know, responses of um of some confusion you know of wondering well um, but it's growing, It's better, you know and you know I think it's it's really important to not lose sight of um, you know why those things are important? Taking a step back, big picture, and saying well what does this mean? Um, almost all of the questions I ask um, in in any sort of environment these days is um, you know what am I seeing, and why do why should I be caring about it? You know, why does it does it matter? Why is it important? Um, I think that that's you know something that that I'm I'm still getting better at, you know I can still go deep into the down the rabbit holes of you know spreadsheets and you know dashboards and everything else, but um, but I think I I often try to just take a step back and say okay, is this really important and and that gets back to that idea of being discipline and focus. If you go down every rabbit hole, you're going to be a mess. You're not going to be effective and um, you might have a curiosity that feels like it's being satisfied but you you really need to be leaders today. There's so much potential for distraction things are moving so quickly that you have to stay very focused on the things that matter most and only step away from those every so often, because there's something just you know too interesting to step away from but not very often at all and so I mean that's something that I would definitely um, remind people of and as I remind myself each day.

49:10.10

Dipesh Jain

Yeah, I'm going to take that one as well. You know you spoke about starting with why, I think you should also end with why, like why? why? Why does? why does that matter? Ah, that is so so powerful. Thank you so much John it was a pleasure having you on the show. I really appreciate the time that you spend and the insights that you shared.

49:26.68

John Jorgenson

Thank you! Thanks so much, Bye bye.

49:27.91

Dipesh Jain

Bye