00:00.31

Dan Gizzi

Hi everyone, this is Tech In EdTech, in this podcast, we discuss technology that powers education and improves learning for all. Welcome to today's episode. I'm your host Dan Gizzy from Magic Ed Tech, and our guest for today's podcast is Louisa Rosenheck director of pedagogy at Kahoot. Louisa, thanks for joining me today and welcome to the show.

00:21.10

Louisa

Um, yeah, thanks for having me. I'm excited to be here.

00:25:00

Dan Gizzi

Absolutely I would love to hear just a little bit about your background. You know what brought you to Kahoot and a little bit more about the company if that's okay.

00:33.74

Louisa

Yeah, of course, so my background is in ed tech design and learning design and especially how to use games and playful learning to create um learning experiences that really go beyond conventional pedagogies and create ways to learn ways to transform learning that are more student-centered, creative, playful that can empower students, and build more future-ready skills, Twenty-First-century skills those kinds of things. So. Um, I worked before coming to Kahoot I worked at MIT for many years um doing design development and research of learning games, simulations, and other kinds of playful technologies. So really thinking about how do we not just move learning online, but how do we transform learning and use technology that can give students opportunities to you know, create their own their own experiences and um, explore their own interests, and connect with each other in in meaningful ways by leveraging technology. So I worked on on a lot of exciting projects for those years at MIT and then a little over a year ago, I transitioned to industry coming to Kahoot.Kahoot is a learning platform.

01:57.42

Louisa

t's used in many segments in at-work higher Ed, K12, and even for social users in at-home settings. Um, and it is especially well-known I would say in K12 settings, teachers and students are very enthusiastic about Kahoot! Um. It is a platform where you can, anyone can create and host sort of online quiz formats. But it's much more than that, you can teach with slides, There are open-ended questions. So. It's also kind of an interactive presentation tool and what is. Um, I think the magic of Kahoot if you are not familiar with it is the social aspect social learning it brings people together. It makes them feel like they're a part of something bigger. Um, and they can you know everyone sort of has ah has a say everyone can do their answer their own questions and their input shows up on the big screen. But. They um are also a part of a whole class experience So in bringing my past experience to Kahoot. Ah, my aim is to help ah the teams kind of expand how they think about playful learning game-based learning. How can we make it more open-ended, more creative? Um, and also more inclusive So that students have more different ways to learn depending on how they learn best and their comfort levels.

03:22.32

Dan Gizzi

Thank you for that, That's great, and digging into my past here I Love seeing the word pedagogy having been a dinosaur in the education space and that was a word. We used very often almost every day.

03:36.86

Dan Gizzi

In conversations from a sales perspective selling English and the soft science. So I love that you've got that there and then I can actually say I I have used Kahoot during presentations in my training days as well to bring the engagement to the crowd to make it more of a you know, 

03:50.45

Louisa

Awesome! Yeah, that's great.

03:52:00

Dan Gizzi

less of the sage on the stage approach. So.

03:55.60

Dan Gizzi

Um, I'm familiar with your tools I'm glad that you were able to give that intro to the audience as well. if they're they're not dinosaurs like myself that have heard the word pedagogy before.

04:01.20

Louisa

Great, Yeah, and it's Interesting. You know the word as you say in teaching everyone thinks about pedagogy um in other realms they may not know the word pedagogy but they do think about it, right? Anyone who's. Designing an experience that has anything to do with learning, really That's what they're thinking about pedagogy is not just what we teach but how we teach it what kind of experience so it is experience Design, It's UX, it's learning design, It really is related to all these things.

04:31.39

Dan Gizzi

Now that's great, just to kind of transition us a little bit I'd love to hear a little bit more about some of the game-based learning that you're doing there at Kahoot you know it's been another topic that's been around in Ed Tech for a while now I'd love to hear some of the innovative things that. Um, you and your team are doing around game-based learning and you know potentially around you know how you conform say to accessibility.

04:55.98

Louisa

Yeah, So um, there are so many different kinds of game-based learning at this point which is very exciting having worked with learning games for years I Love that. Schools Teachers' parents are really embracing them much more and adopting all kinds of different learning games. Um, you know one distinction I like to make in learning games is there are games that are designed and developed specifically for learning and of course, there's many different kinds within that. Um, and then there are also teachers that teach with commercial games entertainment games but that use those as an experience and then um, do all kinds of learning activities whether it's in the game or around the game. Um, So there's really, there are so many different ways to incorporate games into Into teaching and learning. um at Kahoot, One of the things that I have been um and of helping push on, and think more about is when it comes to the style of game that we offer on the platform. Um. This sort of quiz game sort of game show style where in most cases, the teacher is hosting the game and all the students are participating. Um, you know how do we make sure that it's an inclusive learning experience? 

06:23.50

Louisa

So, for a lot of people, they already think of Kahoot as very inclusive which is wonderful. Um, it does kind of give everybody a voice and include everyone in the classroom but ah so it gives everyone an opportunity to be included but that doesn't go quite far enough. It doesn't mean that um that all students really feel like they like Kahoot is made for them or that any specific game that's created Kahoot that's created. Yeah, really works for them. Um, and there are many reasons for that you know a lot of the way people use Kahoot is based on speed and accuracy and that's. Fun for a lot of students that friendly competition but not all students some students you know it's a little bit too much stimulation. There's too much going on. It moves too fast.  Some students just would shine if there were more different ways to express themselves more different ways to answer questions. And you know when we think about inclusion ah in the work I'm doing right now at Kahoot we have somewhat of a focus on Neuro Divergent learners so this could be students with autism or ADHD but really any number of different ways of thinking and ways that their minds work. So what we have we have one project that we're working on right now. Um, which is really thinking about how what are small changes we can make to the Kahoot experience that would give more different students more more ways to engage with it. Um, in you know ways that suit them so kind of more flexibility more customizability. And this project I can I can talk more about it later, but this project is funded by the Lego Foundation. We are part of an accelerator called a Play For All accelerator which is really exciting because it means that there's a whole cohort of companies that are thinking about how to make their experiences more inclusive in multiple ways, on multiple levels.

08:29.18

Dan Gizzi

That's great to hear I think you know, especially from an inclusive and engagement. You know when a lot of the gaming was being talked about in education, I come from a Higher Ed background. Originally, you know, it was finding its way into the curriculum. It was finding its way into you know more of just that Leaderboard type of approach and you know it tend to have that opportunity before we were talking about inclusiveness of exclusivity. You know, keeping people away from wanting to be involved in that if they were not ah you know, accelerating in the class for example, or if they found themselves lower end on the leaderboard it was more of a deterrent than a help at the time. So it's great to hear you know how that's being thought about and more importantly, implemented is particularly on the K12 side where you know there can be that apprehension even just the technology in the classroom.

09:08.76

Louisa

Um, yeah.

09:19.44

Louisa

Yeah, right? and I think it's great that you brought up leaderboards because yeah, that is one of the one of the sort of most common elements of gamification and it doesn't always support the best kind of learning so exactly one of the things we're trying to think about in this project is how can we? um, create some. Kind of you know alternative to a traditional leaderboard that recognizes more different ways of being successful and recognizes students' varied strengths right? Not everybody answers fast. Not everybody knows all the answers to factual questions. Some students have more creative ideas some students. Maybe express themselves better through drawing. So how can we both provide those opportunities in a game for students to express themselves and share ideas and how kind of leverage the classroom community through technology to also celebrate those strengths?

10:11.63

Dan Gizzi

So let's look into the crystal ball for a second. Let's say 3 years from now we've got 1 to 1 in the classroom and you know we're at a point where hybrid is actually working well in k twelve beyond just thinking about how we have to adapt say for a pandemic.

10:28.98

Louisa

Um, yeah.

10:29.90

Dan Gizzi

You know what would you think you know obviously being on the forefront of this. What's the future for gaming and learning?

10:36.67

Louisa

Sure, yeah, um, so a couple of things I think one thing I'd love to see more of in learning games and in educators adopting games for learning at all at all age levels and grade levels. Is more student voice. So this could look like um this could look like students choosing what games they want to learn with um, you know if they're really interested in For example, ecosystems there are some amazing ecosystem simulation games they could play if they're really excited about history. There are some wonderful um, historical kind of storytelling ah games that narrative games that that they can play. And then one thing I think that's really important to keep in mind with so many games out there nowadays that are great for learning is students can choose what they play, how they learn just the way they might choose a book or another kind of resource. and then I think what's really important in teaching is the reflection on that learning so you know what did you learn? What were you surprised by? Um, how can you demonstrate your learning is it designing you know a mod for the game or a new level for the game? Is it writing a new narrative in the style of this game? Is it you know, leading ah an exercise for your peers to teach them what you can learn through this game? So a lot of um, giving students more voice and choice in game-based learning can also come from the learning activities and reflection that happens outside of the game. So It doesn't have to be just. You play a game you practiced a skill and you're done right? It can be using the game as a jumping-off point an experience for students to explore their own interests and demonstrate learning in ways that are important to them. Um, and another area that is definitely coming up more and more and I would love to see um in the future Is students creating their own games. Um, there are so many tools for this Now, There's more and more coming out all the time, Um, and it really fits right into the kind of metaverse idea and the creator economy and and all of these things where you know people are More and more empowered to create content. And there's no reason why that can't start um, start young and and be done in school as well and students are already playing games. They love games. So for that reason, I think games is a great forum for all this to happen.

13:19.76

Dan Gizzi

I love that creator economy line I think you know they all at this age and all think they're going to be Youtube stars and not have to worry about anything in the future I've got ah almost ten-year-old who's already told me he's going to be a Youtube star. So I'm hoping it works out for him. So.

13:22.90

Louisa

Yeah. Right.

13:32.82

Louisa

Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's it, and even if yeah, right, Even if they, you know, don't end up with a YouTuber career but those skills, those kind of creative skills and.

13:36.42

Dan Gizzi

His college fund can go to other things.

13:48.64

Louisa

Experimenting with different modes of expression communication that'll serve them in so many different ways and a lot of times conventional schooling doesn't address those skills. So All of this you know stuff around um creativity and content creation and. Learning through games. It can really support a lot of these future-ready skills.

14:06.36

Dan Gizzi

And from an educator and again putting the parent hat back on again, you know how would you say it's been accepted at least you know say in the classroom and beyond the classroom for for the game-based learning you know, just as things have changed over the last say three years so

14:22.93

Louisa

Um, yeah I think over even you know longer than that over the last decade I think things have changed a lot. Um, I remember when I started working on learning games We had to be very careful how we describe them to teachers because some teachers were totally on board but a lot of teachers and especially administrators too and parents as well would think oh no games are not games are not meant for the classroom, that just shouldn't be here. so we would call them you know interactive simulations and things like that and I just love how games Have become much more mainstream people really understand their value a lot more. teachers are are are seeing the benefits of teaching with games for engagement and student ah seems being excited about it and for the kind of ah deeper learning that can happen exploration problem solving all these things that are sort of natural to games. Um, and then I would say in the past few years you know with the pandemic, Um I think it has been ah, sort of a mix of both more trepidation more worry, especially in the lockdown months where students Couldn't do a lot of things so they may have spent a long time in games like Fortnite, Minecraft and a lot of parents have concerns about that. But I think at the same time A lot of parents are also realizing oh there is value to this. You know it's a social experience is they're not just.

15:47.87

Louisa

Zoning out in front of a game. They are actually connecting with friends in ways that right now they can't do otherwise and in a lot of these games they are creating and building and collaborating. Um, so I think in the during the pandemic years There has definitely been both a little bit more worry and also more recognition of the value.

16:07.29

Dan Gizzi

I think that's great to think that this that connection can happen across the world and in that situation where they don't even feel like they're learning but they are and it's getting snuck in there from the gaming approach before we transition here. The one last thing I also saw was you know.

16:17.28

Louisa

Um, right.

16:23.31

Dan Gizzi

From beyond just thinking k 12 for a second you know obviously thinking around say workforce skills and the continuing education of the learner beyond. The classroom experience is that something you can talk about as well. You know say the training aspect of that or is that something a dutch bond in your and where you with what you're doing?

16:36.35

Louisa

Um, yeah, Absolutely yeah, yeah, definitely? so there are also more and more great technologies being used in. Higher Ed and in corporate learning settings adult learning.I think they are. They're often more in the vein of simulations rather than games and again you know there's often. It's a fine line between the 2 There's they often have more in common than they have.

17:06.94

Dan Gizzi

Right.

17:10.86

Louisa

Um, differences. Ah so regardless I think you know there's a lot of kind of scenario-based simulations where you're that are very hands-on so you're put in a situation and um, you have a context often It's a realistic context based on your workplace or your field. Um. And maybe you have to make decisions or grapple with you know, difficult situations. or maybe it's very skills-based and you have to you know, go through the certain procedures to make sure you know all the protocols and things like that. So. There are definitely Um, different kinds of skills that can be built through these types of simulations. and um I think that you know just like I was saying in K twelve these kinds of experiences are super powerful because they're immersive. Um, you can kind of Choose what you want to learn what you want to practice, It feels hands-on authentic, and relevant. And I think one of the most important parts of learning through games and interactives is the reflection. What happens afterwards? So for adults Ah, just as much if not more I think they really need to not just play the simulation or the game and say okay I learned that I've I've got my certificate and I'm done there really has to be more reflection on Okay, what did I learn Um, what else? What do I still need to practice? How has this gotten me started? but and how does this transfer to the real world? 

18:39.88

Louisa

And you know what other resources might I find now that I'm excited about this topic or this area and who else can I connect with to think deeper about how this applies to our own context? So I think that um in corporate training and adult learning It's especially important to consider that transfer. How do I take this and adapt it and apply it to my own workplace goals and culture?

19:03.73

Dan Gizzi

So to take your own transfer of knowledge. You know what advice do you have for ed tech companies and educators that are listening to our show?

19:13.20

Louisa

Yeah, um, couple of things so one thing I would say is this idea of the learning that has to happen around the game right? So it's not just here's a game you play it and you're done. It's also creating. Maybe it's bridging curriculum, Maybe it's resources for teachers, Um, about you know the pedagogy around the game. So how can we use the game in the best way to build important skills and um, the other thing I really want ad tech companies to all be thinking about? Ah, again is accessibility and inclusion. Um, and I'll say there are. There are 2 different types of kind of accessibility inclusion that I like to distinguish and 1 is um more in the UI, UX so accessibility of like you know can um when people who have different abilities. Can they read this? Can they see it? Can they hear it? um, can what kind of you know fine motors skills are needed? are there different input devices that can work with this? so all of those kind of more more tangible practical aspects and then. In terms of um inclusion for the learning design like what is the experience um, does it give learners different ways to express themselves different ways to um to engage and ah adapt the experience based on their own needs how they learn how they think how they

20:44.18

Louisa

How they express themselves all of these kinds of things. So both in terms of kind of Ui and experience design. Um, it's really important to think about all learners and make it as flexible as possible.

21:18.62

Dan Gizzi

Louisa thank you for joining me today for the latest tech and Ed Tech Podcast and for all of your insight and everything that you're doing for all of the learners as well. We appreciate your insight and look forward to you and our audience joining us in future podcasts.

21:29.70

Louisa

Sounds great. Thanks so much.