00:00.00

Erin Evans

Hi everyone, and welcome back to today's episode of Tech In EdTech. We are so excited to have you with us today's conversation is going to be discussing Accessibility Status Compliant: What happens next? I'm Erin Evans, I'm our Director of Accessibility, Content solutions here at Magic EdTech and I am thrilled to have Cam Beaudoin with us today. Cam is an expert in the field of disability inclusion and accessibility. With a diverse background in program management software development and enterprise consulting, Cam offers a business perspective on how organizations can tackle accessibility and disability inclusion on his Linkedin Live show called Normalize It. He delves into the business aspect of these topics, providing practical solutions to technical and non-technical audiences. Cam, welcome, and thank you so much for joining us today.

00:54.50

Cam Beaudoin

Hey, Erin, thanks so much, I really appreciate that and what a great intro. I mean you're so good.

00:59.45

Erin Evans

Well, thank you! Why don't you give us a little bit of background about you for those who want to know a little bit more than you being an expert in these disability and inclusion and accessibility fields I mean it's up to you.

01:11.17

Cam Beaudoin

Sure all right I've been in this industry for about 9 years now and I cut my teeth way back when at IBM actually where I ran the accessibility department but I mean it's functionally if you can sell, if you can like sell the product then you know you're called the department heads. So I led the practice of Accessibility at IBM Canada and I was a developer at the time and so, I had to go and burn through defects. But what was really interesting is that I made it my own and I think in a lot of organizations. We can, as accessibility professionals, we can start to specialize in 1 thing and then we get known as the accessibility person some of us shy away some of us want that and we become that accessibility champion within our organization. And so I became the accessibility champion for IBM Canada and I was called into every single project that possibly happened because up here in Canada, sure if any listeners know, we have something called AODA, Accessibility for Ontarians with Disabilities Act, and at the time a lot of companies afraid of what would happen if they weren't made accessible so I was the guy I became the guy for accessibility, and from there moved off into that more program management I helped banks and or I helped banks and large organizations build out their accessibility practice, as well as teach and train and coach teams on how to make sure their stuff's accessible and finally becoming a professional speaker on disability inclusion as well. And so say that's but everything that kind of lays down my expertise I hope.

02:48.17

Erin Evans

It does very much and I appreciate that you threw in the fact that you are Canadian because that gives us an additional perspective as we're talking about accessibility because many of us are located here in the United States and we don't often consider or think about the fact that our. other countries have their own laws much like the US does around accessibility and it's really good to share that information. It's really also good to know that at the end of the day we're all working towards the same goal and laws are just a way to get us there.

03:22.38

Cam Beaudoin

Um, yeah, exactly.

03:27.38

Erin Evans

So you were talking about. You know you were the guy at IBM Canada for fixing things in accessibility right? So over the past few years, there's been more of a focus than ever on accessibility. So what have you seen in the past? And how would you see that accessibility is going to be evolving from here on out?

03:46.60

Cam Beaudoin

See, first off, I want to say isn't it great that so many other companies and organizations and governments and schools education doesn't matter what - there's been I've had an easier time entering conversations with accessibility than ever before I know it's not everywhere, I know we still have lots of work to do. But it's so great that I no longer have to walk into an organization and twist. People's arms right? I mean it seems to be Maybe that's just my perception that more and more leaders and stakeholders. They've at least heard of accessibility right? and I suspect I suspect that it's mostly because there's you know if no one wants to be left behind and there's so much more focus nowadays on diversity, equity, inclusion DEI, and ESG goals, environmental sustainability, and government goals that a lot of large organizations are really starting to put more focus on or at least put some ideas around. So, and this especially, if you were to talk to anyone who used to do accessibility back in the 90s for stuff, you know you know, Accessibility, what's that? Like that was that was the attitude that would happen back then and nowadays it's like okay we're maybe not focused on it. We solve a lot to do but at least it's not ah you know you don't get that blank stare anymore like. I used to so where does it go from now though, I think that as organizations put more and more efforts towards equality and inclusion even within their organizations just naturally we're going to start to have more organizations and companies pay attention to the importance of accessibility and that makes our job a lot easier doesn't it? It makes it may it makes it a lot easier to go and start those conversations so where do I see this in five to ten years is that again, we're going to see more and more organizations start to implement it. We're going to see more guidance around what it actually mean to be compliant. The word “Compliant” isn't even the right word to say anymore because what is compliance for except that no one's giving a stamp on accessibility right? You don't get some big you know award for being accessible because we don't know what barriers may present themselves later on down the line so I can see a lot more focus on ah putting out what does compliance mean, what are the outcomes that we're looking for, and I think that's kind of where everything's going?

06:09.12

Erin Evans

I think it's really interesting that you say you know there is no stamp for accessibility and that is true right? You can do a report that shows the current status right? For that accessibility conformance report, you can have your VPAT filled out and you can have users using your site. But there's no like big gold star that you win and you know thinking about the fact that there is no achievable end goal in that perspective. How do you think that companies will look at accessibility and say even though I'm doing all of this work and I'm putting in this time and I have these documents to show that I've done this, where's my reward? What would you say their reward quote, unquote is when they're doing that work?

07:04.37

Cam Beaudoin

Well, that's where I think that us, as accessibility professionals or anyone who is a champion inside their organizations, we need to learn to speak up! We need to learn how to show organizations that it's not a goal. There's no end status to this just like you know gender equality within an organization. What are the benefits of having, you know, equal amount of you know board members who are women what do you get from that? Well, you get different points of view, you get a more equitable workplace.  You get to follow standards and there's all these you know A lot of us have a hard time explaining these business benefits because that's what a lot of people start with looking for tell me the reasons why I should be doing this Well, you know we do it because it's the right thing to do We do it because it creates ah more opportunities for people who you know if you especially if you’re selling a service, or if you're selling a product or teaching people online, greater access is what you want right? Don't you want users? So a big part of what I talk about is around communication and advocacy. And so we need to get comfortable having that conversation with people and say there's not it's one end Goal. There's nowhere that we're going to finalize and say finally we are here ”We are the most equitable company” that doesn't really exist. It's a learning, It's a learning process for everybody and everyone just has to get comfortable with the fact that there is no end goal that we need to focus on the journey.

08:33.63

Erin Evans

And I do love the way that you talk about focusing on the journey because that is also how I approach it and how we approach it here at Magic it is a journey and where are you on your journey and where do you need to go so to the where do you need to go and how do I get there. Talk a little bit if you would please about accessibility champions and what that looks like within a company you know you going back to in your past you were the guy at IBM Canada and I might be a little off in saying this but I'm sure that IBM Canada was a large corporation so there had to be more than 1 person and you have to start. Somewhere but how do you empower those companies and teams with the tools that they need to take the learnings and the championing of those people those individuals to make it into an initiative that is then sustainable and something that can be implemented throughout the company?

09:30.45

Cam Beaudoin

So I would say don't start like how I started when a lot of us start like this right? I mean we we started saying you know I'm going to stand on this soapbox and I'm going to shame everyone into compliance and over time I think we all kind of go through that process where the only way we think that we can be heard is to tell everyone how wrong they are in doing what they're doing and it's only through the experience of being. Ah, maybe even on the receiving end sometimes of this that you realize that we're not going to be winning any awards for doing that either. In fact, I've got a funny story so I used to when I used to consult with the bank. I used to walk around with the Darth Vader music you know ready queued up on my phone because I would walk into sprint meetings with Dun-Dun-Dun-Dun-Duh-Dunand it's like does that is that really the perception that we want people to have when we're trying to help them with accessibility? Absolutely not. So I would say the best thing that you can do is you as an accessibility champion inside the organization and sometimes you are ah you know an entity of 1 a power of 1 you've got to get comfortable with the idea that you're a coach more than anything else and you're not going to win every single battle. You're not going to win every single battle just like how you're fitness coach is not going to get you to eat perfectly all the time or your money coach. Maybe you go and spend something when you're not supposed to these are the types of ideas that I try and relate to what we do here in advocacy. You are a coach first and you're not going to get all your wins now say you've got that down. You understand you're not going to get every single win. How do you start to create an environment where other people want to join your cause? Well, it's got to be and ah around the idea of acceptance and understanding that people may have different places where they start and I always say start where someone else is right now. Don't try and convert them. So if somebody and I love storytelling I'm big on storytelling if somebody inside the organization is resistant or hesitant to care about accessibility, you got to meet them there and start to relate to where they are, mentally, because maybe, maybe they have other requirements that they need to care about right now. Maybe ah, they have other tasks that need to be completed first I know I speak to a lot of advocates who they say my boss just doesn't listen to me and you know I can't seem to get them I said it's okay, this sprint you're not going to win next sprint you maybe not win either. So what are you doing for accessibility 2 or 3 sprints down the line, and I say we got to focus a little bit further down and you're gonna get a lot more wins if you do that. So the best that you can do to really start to get an organization to care or get your peers to care is really meet them where they are, and and be open and approachable so that anyone wants to come to you and get their questions answered.

12:17.60

Erin Evans

Yeah, and I really like that approach and I like that you how you framed that because I think it also is that natural tie-in to some of those DEI initiatives where it is bringing in the empathy piece understanding where you are, and working from there to move forward instead as you said you know being the Darth Vader here comes the bad news! You know, there is no bad news here. It is the reality of where you as an organization may be, doesn't mean you have to stay there and you can move forward right? so let's talk a little bit about scaling and an accessibility initiative and how members of the accessibility community could help where do you think that companies find it difficult to take these ideas and having learned accessibility is important - it's going to broaden your customer base because more people can use your products - why is it still a difficulty to move those forward?

13:24.10

Cam Beaudoin

I think one of the biggest gaps that we, as accessibility professionals, are still not with it yet, and even I'm still learning this, is that we don't document enough. We don't document our processes enough and we don't document the way that we're going to approach a situation because of it.

Imagine if every single time you brought your car into the mechanic if he's if you know if it was something new every time I'm here for an oil change. Well we're going to put synthetic in this time you you come back and I say where we're gonna put this other one you say? Well, why did you change it and they say I don't know that's just what we feel like today. But that's how we react to so many of these situations now I understand I totally understand that sometimes a button or a label you got to treat them differently depending on what the scenario is but our approach to how we solve the problem can be standardized and can be documented. And maybe the solution is different but what that starts to do is it starts to raise the confidence of the people who are in our organizations to your expertise and that's something that even myself like I just recently left my full-time gig to do consulting full time on my own organization and what confidence it brings to my clients now when I show them a well-documented report. They know that they're going to receive an answer from me within this amount of time they know that're going, they're going to receive a response to their request and a recommendation all documented the exact same way every single time. That starts to make you seem like a serious you know person who is willing and able to help in a rigorous way and that's going to start to give confidence to um to them when they approach you and say like hey we need. We need this solution here.

14:59.11

Erin Evans

Um, but.

15:13.91

Cam Beaudoin

And it's not just winging it. This person is not going to wing it every single time that they come so I would say that is the biggest thing that we all ah need to learn and even myself this is how this is a good approach to giving recommendations for accessibility.

15:27.62

Erin Evans

I Like that approach I, personally, am a big fan of documentation and process because it does help and obviously it's also an evolving piece and in my experience that's been the caveat like I often joke that I want to wear a t-shirt all the time that says it depends because you can approach it from that same systematic way. But inevitably, there's going to be a curve ball that you're going to want to adjust for and still important to then document that curveball because then you'll say hey next time when it comes up, we've had this experience but I think that's a really good way to approach helping to scale those initiatives.

15:58.23

Cam Beaudoin

Right.

16:11.15

Cam Beaudoin

And I would even just jump in and say 1 more thing to that 2 right? You know you may have 2 different solutions to the same problem but that approach if that email is a template email that you send every single time that someone says to you hey I've got ah a question on accessibility for you. If that response came back the same thing and if we clarified right? You know it could be something as he says this is the problem as I understand it clarifying what the problem is is sometimes half the bad isn't it right? We all know that anyone who's ever worked in any kind of consulting role if you just kind of throw out some answers. You're not actually teaching the people who are doing the work either. So this. Ah, this is like multilayered here and we don't talk enough about that in our industry We don't talk enough about how do we create a repeatable business that has a process to it. That's sustainable. Not only for the people that we're advocating for not only for the people we're advocating too but also for ourselves. You know there's lots of people talking about except advocacy fatigue or advocacy burnout these days as well. So something to keep in mind.

17:11.15

Erin Evans

So kind of piling on to the advocacy burnout and advocacy fatigue. It does beg the question. How can the accessibility community help in these scalable initiatives? Not in a negative way I know that the members of the community who are out there and are constantly speaking up what are ways that they can help as we're looking at these across the board.

17:39.32

Cam Beaudoin

So I would say probably the biggest way is that if you see a problem in a service that you really love that you use a lot, don't be afraid to go and make yourself known to that organization or that or even within your own organization, to help them find the solution that will work for you. I know many many people in in the community who have a way to send emails to organizations that you know they've created some exclusion or a barrier to people with disabilities I know it's tiring I know it's exhausting I could absolutely appreciate that and we don't want to be ah our our community is constantly fighting to be heard from ah by organizations as well. But if we don't raise our voice and if we don't learn how to communicate in a way that that organization will understand, then we will lose out in the long run I feel. So, as a community, we need to understand that ah getting involved in the community and finding peers. I found LinkedIn to be a really great place. In fact, I have a lot that's where I do most of my work so Linkedin is a great community of disability and accessibility advocates as well.

18:50.20

Erin Evans

Yeah I um, agree having worked in the accessibility field for the past few years I have found the accessibility community to be 1 of the most welcoming and helpful communities because you can tell when some of those voices that are out there speaking up might have lost a little bit of energy and they're not as active on LinkedIn or on other social platforms but somebody else inevitably steps in and they connect each other and I like how you phrase the utilization of that community and what I have seen is everybody is always there to help each other so that would definitely be a place too that I would just add in to say you know tap into the individuals and to the community as a whole to learn what you don't know because none of us know everything.

19:37.19

Cam Beaudoin

Absolutely yeah yeah.

19:40.48

Erin Evans

I think that's I think that's another key point. You know we might be very skilled in the work that we're doing but I learned something new every single day in this field which is one of the reasons I love being in it as much as I do.

19:47.31

Cam Beaudoin

Absolutely Yep! Yeah I'm with you there and don't forget the soft skills. That's one thing I'm going to say as well. Don't forget your soft skills your communication skills your negotiation skills because that is as valuable as technical skills that a lot of us tend to put a lot of emphasis on.

20:02.27

Erin Evans

Mean So let's shift a little bit and specifically think about our education community and accessibility and education. What hurdles do you think companies need to overcome to be more compliant and usable in the accessibility mindset in the education community?

20:24.27

Cam Beaudoin

So I would say so one of the biggest hurdles that like a lot of people are not focused on. Yes, we understand that the product is accessible. We understand that our deliverables are accessible. We integrate that we move forward with that. But 1 of the biggest things or 2 of the biggest things I should say are number 1 is procurement any type of bringing other services or products into the organization. If that's not if there's no focus on that if you haven't thought of your procurement policies yet that is a natural next step. Once you get an understanding of what accessibility is from a technical point of view. Go start to learn about who you're bringing into the organization because if you could imagine. Maybe you're using some kind of third -party widget for calendar bookings or something like that. Well what if that's not accessible as you you know as you're delivering that to your client - it's too easy just to wipe your hands and say well you know I didn't build that therefore it doesn't need to be made successful. But that's that's not right either and number 2 I would say are your hr policies and and hiring practices as well and not. It's not easy, but I'm saying it's very straightforward HR Departments can learn how to build better job descriptions or think about accommodations or you know provide safe spaces for people to open up and talk and provide training to managers or directors as to you know how to manage a team where somebody um may have a disability whether it's disclosed or not. So I would say those are like they're really easy, not easy. Those are the very natural next steps is after we thought about a single part being accessible, where do we go from there?

22:00.53

Erin Evans

Yeah, I like the way that you phrase that as well I'm going to ask you the big-picture question - How would you define an inclusive world for people with disabilities?

22:19.30

Cam Beaudoin

So the really easy way to answer that would be no barriers and I'm reading um a great book right now talking about by Cat Holmes it's called Mismatch -  for anyone who's listening. It's a great book and in that book. She talks a lot about exclusion and this is maybe a different take on how to think about accessibility and I'm starting to now tap into a lot of that whenever I speak to people about accessibility. What it is , why it's important. Because while not all of us may understand firsthand what it is to have a disability or not one that we know of anyways we can all understand what it is to be excluded from something even if you go back in time back, you know when you were when you're a kid and you weren't invited to a party or maybe you you didn't get to go to you know your grandparents house just like that or a friend had something that you didn't and you wanted to go join in and they didn't want you to we all have under so we can all understand what exclusion is and so to me the world. Ah, an inclusive world is one where there are no exclusions for anybody based on their ability.

23:27.54

Erin Evans

Um, wouldn't that be like the best place to live I would I would love to have but I would love to to be there right? Um, one step at a time baby steps. Um, it does absolutely.

23:32.67

Cam Beaudoin

Right? right? right? and I think that's it but it starts with us doesn't it. It starts with is it starts with each and every single one of us right? Whether it's you know. Maybe you're at work and as more more and more of us are going back to an office kind of setting. What is it to invite, you know your whole team out? You know if it's twelve o'clock and you know it's really interesting I'm not sure if um, a lot of the listeners are going back to work and it feels different now at work doesn't it, I'm not sure if you know anyone has felt that. But going back to an office setting where there's you're supposed to have lunch again. Do you have lunch with your peers? Do you go out for you know what is it to and to say okay, everyone at you know noon every Wednesday when we go to work, we're just going have lunch together is that okay, if you don't want to join me. It's fine. But what if we were to create a more inclusive world by just starting with our own community and our own workplace and things like that.

24:29.60

Erin Evans

Yeah, I agree that it does start with your individual actions and I think that goes for anything that you're trying to do good or do something better in the world but especially when you're thinking about accessibility and Inclusivity. You know, utilizing whatever you're working on in your daily office Job. You know, maybe it's a computer program. Maybe it's your email program but you notice something that you can navigate to with a keyboard or it doesn't make sense to you or you can't see because you're getting older your eyesight is changing right? So just say raising your hand and saying hey have we looked into this is this something that we can see where it's falling in the compliance and what can we do to fix it?

25:16.83

Erin Evans

All right? What advice do you have Cam for Ed Tech companies and educators who might be listening to our show?

25:26.00

Cam Beaudoin

I would say that don't shy away from this topic a lot of us create barriers in the work and what we do not out of intent but it does seem to kind of crop up doesn't it and a lot of the times I know for myself when I excluded somebody or something it was not intentional and then when I realized it I felt I felt ashamed I mean I think that's very natural as well. We don't want to go and you know I don't want to go and talk to this person because maybe I have to redo some work or um, you know I didn't think of it that way and I'm going to be I'm going to be shamed if I walk up to them and and and tell someone that. I created this barrier so start early and start opening up to talking to people again and just asking a simple question hey does this work for you right? Something as simple as an email, you just mentioned email. Yeah, if you're using Outlook right? It has an email checker, an accessibility checker integrated inside and asking, you know I had access to somebody who was visually impaired and I said hey does this work for you and he says well not really when you do it like this you know for some reason it flips to this and you know I would just like it if in an email signature that you would put the alt text on the company logo and I said you know I didn't even realize that because the company signature was provided by the organization right? You know like they got federated identity where they just push a signature to every single person but I could still get in there and fix it so being open to being wrong and being open to understanding and learning more about how to be more inclusive I think is probably the best advice I can give right now.

27:03.80

Erin Evans

That is great advice and as we are closing out our podcast. Do you have any final words or anything else that you would like to share with our listeners today?

27:14.92

Cam Beaudoin

I'd say if you have time on Fridays at noon, I do host that LinkedIn Live show that we talked about to be early the show so that's my Linkedin live show on disability, inclusion, accessibility and I try and bring a business tilt to it as well. So there are a lot of podcasts out there talking about the tech. Ah, but this is much more for business so we try and bring on a whole bunch of people I had the Chief Accessibility Officer of Canada on the show I also have some people for Microsoft and um also HR reps so it's great, plus come check it out if you can.

27:47.43

Erin Evans

Well, thank you again so much for your time today cam. We really appreciate having you. It was a great conversation and um for the listeners of our Tech and EdTech Podcast thank you all for joining us and we look forward to having you join us at our next episode.

28:01.27

Cam Beaudoin

Thanks for having me here.