00:00.00

Ritesh

Hi everyone, this is Tech in EdTech. In this podcast, we discuss technology that powers education and improves learning for all. Welcome to today's episode. I'm your host Ritesh Chopra and our guest for today's podcast is Ashwath Bharath, Senior Director, Movement Building at Teach for India. Ashwath, thanks for joining me today, and welcome to today's show.

00:22.53

Ashwath

Thank you, Ritesh. Thanks for having me here. I'm really looking forward to our conversation.

00:27.52

Ritesh

Absolutely! I think it's gonna be equally mesmerizing for us as well to hear your thoughts and see, how do we help your movement and I think it's a very social movement that you have and I really look forward for this enriching conversation Ashwath with you.

00:41.62

Ashwath

Alright.

00:46.42

Ritesh

And I think before we begin a deep dive into the topic Ashwath today I think I’d like to understand a bit of your background and how you got into the role with Teach for India. What's been your journey so far into this role, if could give you a little bit of background on that?

00:56.96

Ashwath

Um, yeah, certainly yeah so I was born and raised in Hyderabad. Um, I would say in many ways It's a normal childhood. I had a lot of curiosity and loved playing a lot of sports. Math, physics especially astronomy. Um, I think my interest towards life sciences got me to do Biotech in my under-graduation. So I did a Btech in Biotech in Hyderabad. But through that and post that I did my master's in Research and Bioinformatics at IIIT Hyderabad again. I think somehow through that journey in college there was this um, interest that was developing towards politics public administration just society at large and if things can be better. Um, you know we can make better decisions as a collective. So that really got me to you know, want to actually explore this space, so post my masters I actually volunteered in an NGO called a Sodo, which is based out of the Vellore district in Tamil Nadu. So, I had the opportunity there to work for close to eight months with the first-generation schoolgoers not even learners from tribal backgrounds you know, and surrounding villages from there. Um, I think that experience kind of gave me a very different perspective to otherwise what's the perspective I have of society even if it's coming through mainstream media news. It's largely you know probably opinions of what the government is thinking or the private sector is thinking but I think what's happening in the social space was something unless you experience it directly. You really don't kind of bring in those worldviews. Um, and so subsequently yeah, you know the Teach for India Fellowship seemed very you know attractive because one is there were these long-like conversations I used to have in college with friends on what is the purpose of education, how should we be learning, like what is it we are getting from, you know these degrees, and so it seemed like almost like an opportunity to you know challenge some of those conventions and really work towards what could be possible alternatives or be at least in the pursuit of that? So, the 2 years fellowship gave me an opportunity to teach ah 120 students math in Pune. So that's when I moved to Pune and subsequently, I was there for 8 years um, I think the fellowship was a very enriching experience for me like as much as the students learned I feel even I've also learned and developed through that but it basically instilled this belief that you know: if the right conditions or the right environment is created, um, children from any background could even surpass your expectations. So how do you really have that champion for a child? How do you really create that ecosystem? I think that kind of became something which I wanted to you know, explore more it seemed like a complex social challenge and in many ways started seeing how it also affects you know society at last. So, I stayed back and Teach For India, I worked with the government relations team. Um, I had the opportunity to work with some local, state-level, and even central-level projects. Um, but I think eventually working with the government also sometimes brings in that little bit of impatience. So, there was this itch towards technology. After my biotech, I did bioinformatics in masters. Even during the two years of my fellowship back in 2012-2013 itself, each of my students had these tablets and they were learning math from Khan Academy through an offline raspberry pi server. Um, and so I decided that I work with Teach For India's online ed-tech platform, which is, you know, developed exclusively for educators in India and so I've been working with that, and today along with that recently moved into this role called the senior director for Movement Building at Teach For India where we basically look at a lot of our external and scale work. So, work with the government, edtech platform work in rural India, our alumni who've done the fellowship much like me. We have a network of around four thousand five hundred plus of them. So, that's where I am today and based out of Bangalore now for the last three years.

05:06.80

Ritesh

Thank you so much for that for those insights, Ashwath. A very varied and very illustrative journey from astronomy to pretty much doing, I would say bioengineering, biotechnology, to where you are today in education and empowering India with education, very illustrative, very impressive. Thanks for that, and while you touched upon technology towards your answer and your introduction, and your role as well. I think I want to touch upon and understand I think because you touch upon India at large right? India working with different government initiatives I think it will be pertinent to ask you about how do you see where does, in respect to your role, how do you see technology playing and making society more equitable, accessible, and easy with respect to education?

06:01.86

Ashwath

Yeah, yeah, I mean um, yeah, that may yeah you know on a broader sense right to that question. Actually, there's definitely there's access to information and content right? Like that's one big disruptor that technology has brought in over the last couple of decades. I think the other example that comes to my mind is in just what we call inclusivity, like technology actually enabling people with different abilities. Um, and then within the scope of edtech itself., there are so many pieces, right? There's remote and personalized access, there's learning and feedback loops, there's an opportunity to connect and collaborate, and now with AI really kind of finding its feet, I think the idea of instant multilingual content being available. I think there's a big role therein, you know, through these aspects that I see technology kind of really moving us towards a more equitable society. Um, I think the best kind of analogy that comes to my mind is that given India's demographies-demographics today and where it's kind of moving in the next decade or 2, if we really have to accommodate all children right from primary school to higher education, we should be building brick-and-mortar institutions like at least 20 schools every 7 to 10 days and 4 to 5 colleges every 7 to 10 days to really be able to absorb the capacity of the growing population and the next generation that's coming. So I don't think so, that's possible and definitely, you know again, technology is going to be a huge platform in itself. I think a few years from now like how we talk about the number of children in government schools, number of children in private schools,  I think there will be a new bucket which is the number of children, who are learning online or blended and not necessarily part of the traditional school system. So that's how I kind of see it as play out. Yeah, in a very broad sense.

07:53.50

Ritesh

Great, No absolutely I kind of echo those thoughts because as technology, see physically it's difficult to have the best teacher available everywhere, even in remote areas. But, if you have the best of technology and the best of education, digitally you can give them all equal education, and that digital quality as an education can be shared across everyone no matter where you're sitting. You're sitting in a remote area. You're sitting in another city. They all can consume the same quality digital education.

08:27.40

Ashwath

Yeah.

08:29.53

Ritesh

So absolutely and I think you touched upon we're seeing a lot of innovations around AI. AI impacting and ensuring that they're creating new avenues for education and how do we improve education and improve accessibility. So I think it will certainly be new trends that we're seeing in what we are working on as well. But ah talking about that, Ashwath, what I'll be interested to know what are different types of learning modalities are being used by your team today and what are your thoughts on how do we, sort of, increase the engagement around accessibility of education.

09:10.91

Ashwath

Yeah, yeah, I think this kind of plays out in 2 levels right? Likely what are learning modalities based on one's own understanding of what's an excellent education or purpose of education and the second is in the context of tech, the conversation we are having. I think education sector was this one sector in my observation which really kind of didn't change with changing times you see entertainment really you know, adopting tech, you see the medical sector taking a tear you know adopting tech and so many others as well, healthcare sorry. But with education, I think covid and the pandemic and schools actually shutting down kind of was like a forced blessing you know for the sector to really think about what was the purpose of education and you know whether the traditional form of schooling learning ah, does it have any relevance or are there alternate ways to actually meet those objectives. So I think very similarly for us as well in covid, we had to literally adapt there and so we kind of raised funds to deploy tablets to our students provide data and really slowly start moving into kind of a blended way of not just training our fellows who work as full-time educators, but them also delivering that content to students and I think over the last 2-3 years there has been back and forth because schools reopen and then it closes so, we kind of still have been kind of having that dance of online and offline in-person learning.

10:39.16

Ashwath

I think, to the first point which I had made, when we are thinking about it largely in an in-person space or an online space when I'm talking about learning modality or when I'm thinking about it generally, we base it on 3 principles. Like one is, how do you create safe spaces for students? like classrooms shouldn't be the space of fear, there needs to be a space where students feel comfortable, there's also joy that's present. The second principle is how do we look at students as partners in learning right? Like how do we move from the traditional power structures of what a teacher holds, a student holds, and really look at students being partners and I've actually seen that when students are partners the idea of personalized learning or customized learning really kind of unlocks in a new level and the third is kind of all of this being in service to you know can be foster the or unlock student voice agency their own leadership as well. So but with respect to technology particularly the way kind of I'm seeing what's happening today across you know few hundred classrooms that we are working in is that one is we are using we are continuing to use tablets to increase the instructional time because again, most schools that we work with especially the government schools have just 4 hours of instructional time school might be open for 5 hours which is 4 hours, which is actually a very limited time knowing you know what their learning gaps are. So, our teachers our fellows do kind of you know use tablets to continue the instructional time beyond you know the physical ah the school ours physically. But, again within the classroom, It's the entire range. We see our fellows using technology right from a simple projector to actually building projects from kits as well. I think to your second part of the question in terms of what like what do we really need right? I think we'll need to have more open-source resources for sure. But we also need to move towards more than just content right? I think the learning experience has to be contextualized so it's not just about translating content or contextualizing just content which is what today you know edtech systems are competing with the traditional form of schools but it needs to move beyond that, right? Everything else which comes then under broadened data access and you know reducing the digital divide I think these are a few things, yeah.

13:04.19

Ritesh

Thanks, Ashwath, I think this is, you kind of pressed the right buttons and you kind of mentioned a lot of points in your answer there and I think I kind of agree that technology we should use more like an enabler. Otherwise, we're seeing a lot of trends about edtech these days but I think there is more of tech and less of education. I think you talked about learning efficiency, creating learning experiences that should be more impactful to students. I think I kind of agree that technology should be taken more like an enabler, than technology as everything and I think you also talked about very interestingly, I was having a conversation, Ashwath,  with someone, and we talked about will technology go a lot of other industries route right? like you talked about other industries like healthcare. Say, for example, music as well, right? With the help of music, I think it has made everything so cheap. Everything is available online people can download anything rather than buying those floppy disks or Cds, okay? So, It has made everything so accessible. So, can education replete? Can education do that with the help of, the help of technology? I think that was an interesting conversation. We kind of touched on that card as well in your answer. But yeah, absolutely very insightful on that. I think the other thing is, what I'm trying to understand from you is, Ashwath, where you are, do you see especially the audience that you cater, right? the underprivileged, the rural audience of India, do you see there being greater acceptance on technology there, right? How do you see there about they accepting technology, because we see a lot of resistance from largely teachers accepting the technology, but what is your what is your kind of view on that? That would be helpful to kind of for the audience here.

14:52.87

Ashwath

Um, yeah, yeah.

15:09.25

Ashwath

Yeah I mean I shared a similar perspective, to be honest, um, you know if you would have asked me pre-pandemic, Ritesh, I would have said that there is this um there are two things which I at least sense when I talk to teachers, one is the thing that I need to learn something new. What's wrong with the, what I'm currently doing? why is that not enough? and the second is, this something that I'm going to learn something new, is this actually going to start replacing me or is it going to disrupt? You know what I know about my job or everything familiar so that was a sentiment idea I do. I've sensed it and I think post-pandemic it was kind of the card was forced upon where clearly it became that teachers who don't adapt to technology will be replaced by those who do, right? 

15:57.65

Ritesh

Um, yeah, it's like a blessing in disguise, right, the pandemic? 

16:06.88

Ashwath

So yeah, yeah, yeah, so in that sense it definitely is right? So, but the way I look at it, like today. Um, I don't know if I have a definite answer. I feel the bottom line is that it is still people dependent but I know this is also going to change and change really fast and probably we can talk about it on where things are going in the coming years. But when I say it's people-dependent, It's either dependent on the learner. So, what's one's owns motivation, ambition, abilities, and you see that's the struggle with a lot of MOOCs, right? And on the other side I mean if it's more on the educator, then it's actually what is the educator's ability to experiment to continue to learn I think the things which I was mentioning earlier and more importantly, do they use tech as a tool to learn themselves right? Um, but at least my observation is that even though this has not been the case with learners and educators where they're not. It is still people-dependent. I think from the tech side, we've gone through great lengths of engineering. Let it be to customize to gamify to track to give real-time feedback to differentiate, right? So I definitely think that it is still people dependent so you're right when you say that you know there are people who still kind of resist, how it kind of enables. Ah, but on the other hand, I think now kind of it's a forced adaptation where you know this kind of is the way future is going but there's also probably a third kind of was just skeptics right of overall what's the impact about this and I think this was something which you had spoken about earlier. And personally for me also I keep going back and forth. I feel this is one of those buckets which is the biggest thing, which is questionable because at one level most of the ed tech products, including us, we operate at the level of tech metrics. So the number of new users, returning users session time, bounce rate. You know, looking at these kinds of metrics but that does not and there's a lot of data analysis also to it, right? So how much content has been consumed number of hours of videos that's been seen and things but we still need to you know close that gap of what is all of this adding to, you know with the end users. I think there are ways now, but it's still something as a sector I feel we need to solve for. Um, I think the second is what I was mentioning is in terms of currently if you see a lot of Edtech is delivering content right in. Of course, in much more engaging and creative ways. But we are still thinking about education in the sense of traditional subjects of delivering math concepts or science or history. But if you look at what's come out in the national education policy, the national curriculum framework that was released ah a few weeks earlier this year it’s actually kind of really moving away from that traditional sense of education itself. So I do feel that you know tech needs to evolve to really move from just access and exposure to information to building interpersonal skills bringing in value-based education, fostering that idea of student voice and agency. And this is where I feel I'm very hopeful with AI really bridging that gap, like being able to really walk that additional mile of where content ends to where a learner learns and really applies it. So yeah, that's my overall take on that.

19:24.40

Ritesh

Great, thanks I think you already spill the beans of your wisdom around what you see coming up in the future right for your area. So I think that's great and I think we talked about resistance. We talked about teachers, right? The question that I may have and I often ask, when in my discussion with people is about, how do you think talented people right? Kind of embracing teaching as a teaching, as a profession more like a passion because it's more like a social responsibility specially for a country like us. We're still developing, a lot of roads to cover for us because taking and helping people take that as a passion to improve overall student learning and outcomes. What are your thoughts around that?

20:07.79

Ashwath

Yeah, yeah, I mean this question is quite personal, right? This is something we spend the last decades or 13 years around. I honestly find ourselves to be in a chicken and egg situation because just, I mean just think about this right? like at least me growing up in the traditional classroom systems in the 90s and assuming it's the same for you as well like pretty much our experience of education has not been really path-breaking right? It is this time filled between lunch break and different intervals or playing with and meeting friends before or after school and it's just something that you had to do and you just did and maybe there might be these few aha moments but largely it's not been something which is inspiring really tapping into one's expression and letting one shine right? On the other hand, you are actually put through standardized tests and probably at times you know a majority of the students don't feel as successful as a result of that, right? So, and you see the person standing in front of you actually responsible for this experience so that profession on its own is not inspiring anymore. You really don't experience the potential and the power of what a great classroom can be and so that's not a space where you want to associate your you know future with. I mean that's, I feel like, that's one side of the problem but having said that what I've seen at least you know with our work over the last thirteen years, across 8 cities impacting thousands of children is that in many ways I've realized that our society and our nations, our nation is actually built in our classroom, like depending on what kind of a space the classroom is, who is included, who is not, who is standing in front of the children as role models and so on um, and I really feel that today there's a lot of purpose of education towards employment, right?

22:11.45

Ashwath

So, unless the conversation of education moves towards classrooms and schools being centers of not just economic progress but social progress at all as well. I think the real weight of the profession of teaching making teaching aspirational doesn't really come in. But again on the other side to your point like how do you go beyond its social responsibility I think that's where kind of you know we need to let market forces really play in. Today your entry and retention barriers are completely off, right? Like it's very hard to become a teacher in a government school. But once you do, you will most probably going to retire as a teacher. No matter how effective you are. So these have to flip, right? So it should be easier for anybody to really experiment with the profession, and as they continue to do well and as they continue to find their feet in it, they continue to stay in the profession, right? Um, and honestly even in my own experience of teaching what I've realized is the more you teach the truth is that you also learn as much right? So one of the things which we are trying to do in Teach For India is really saying how is it how can we really bring, you know, the most but the brightest and most compassionate citizens to be those role models in the classroom to actually teach and foster that learning space, right? So that's one at one level. I think the other level just building off It is that, just saying that I think we also need to see what's the power of, you know, being part of a profession like being a teacher right? What is the network you're kind of being accessed to is your career just stagnating? Once you're teacher, are you just a teacher? Do you kind of get like higher degrees or move to higher grades of teaching but is that it or are there other ways an educator profile can be looked at? I think these are 2 things which I would definitely leave it to market forces and the reason why I'm saying this is there's a lot more you can elaborate on it on really what happens in the affordable private space and how much teachers are paid for a few hundred to couple thousand rupees and really what it means to allow market forces to play there. But, I think in the end, my last appeal is that there's also a lot of beauty in just being with children, It's really energizing it keeps one at the edge of their seat and the beauty is really that every day is a new day because you see that children don't have a lot of fixed baggage that they carry even if it is. It's kind of open to exploring something and in many ways they end up teaching you some of the most important life lessons in the most simple of ways. So I would say these 3 things. 

24:45.33

Ritesh

Um, great. Thanks for those insights. Very helpful and I think rightly so because if we can inspire today's generation, you can see these are a generation today's digital natives and how we are seeing today's generation is required to embrace that digital and kind of pass on that and ensuring that if today's generation can become good teachers, they can actually instill and ensure that using digital technology, that's what they do, can actually add a lot of value to the overall education. So absolutely, I think kind of aligned to what you said. How do you see all this play around getting into say when he talked about the new standards in India about education standards at large? How do you feel they come out along and improve the overall standards working on government working on building, standardizing, education, and making it more affordable and effective for the entire community at large? What are your thoughts around that?

25:42.22

Ashwath

Um, yeah, yeah, yeah.

25:52.62

Ashwath

Yeah I think I would start off with first holding a certain paradox. Usually, wherever technology has entered any kind of market or sector, it has kind of pushed for a certain level of standardization almost like disruptive silver lit. Um, and also that's what say in many ways is the conversation of gene education and the idea of standardizing education but the paradox or the other side to that is education finally is effective if it is learner specific right? So those are the 2 things which need to keep in mind. Um, but I think, to in terms of how do I see it happening to be honest I actually see everything is happening right now. But what I see happening in the coming few years, it's going to be done really really well. So let it be in terms of accessibility, access of technology, or learning. Let it be affordability, let it be the idea of collaboration, personalization, right? Co-tutoring with AI. I think what I see play out is that the learning has to, learning you and I probably know it and in many ways, our work demand said that learning is beyond your formal systems and the period you've spent in school that you need to constantly be learning and adapting in that sense. So I think the idea of getting feedback, getting asking anyone- anytime - anything, all of that is already happening now and it's just going to happen exponentially better and I also see this in terms of the domains as well, right? So Let it be an introduction of coding, robotics, AI  into the curriculum at younger ages. I think the idea of you know kind of preparing the coming generations towards you know, that idea of learning, that idea of working, and that idea of how society is really going to convene is already starting to play In. Um, I think the other thing which I will also obviously which is what you're already seeing and more of it will happen is just that online learning platforms be offering that content, the courses, the learning experience at a fraction of the cost, and the bridge between online and offline learning like whatever the gap could be. I think with AI coming in that gap will also soon be bridged is my bet. So, I think that's how I see ah you know education standards end of shaping at large. It's just more of what we are doing but done really well.

28:25.55

Ritesh

Great. No, absolutely I think this's been great to hear your thoughts around that. Ashwath, then I think kind of wrap up the conversation like to seek some of your advice, some of your words of wisdom, then for companies like global edtech players or global edtech providers, how do you see companies who are going global or someone like us who are helping edtech companies globally? What is it that you think would be some of your advice to kind of help us create a more affordable impactful education? Beyond the curriculum, as you rightly mentioned, I think that's an important aspect, if not about the books or the curriculum, I think more about taking care of the underprivileged communities, right? Because I think those are where there's no money gets kind of affected because of change in technology right? So because education is a very noble area right? It kind of gives personally to me, a lot of satisfaction being a part of education. So I think what will be your advice for someone like a global ed-tech company to serve the community at large including and bring in the underprivileged community as well under fold when they look at creating new learning experiences there?

29:54.63

Ashwath

Yeah, yeah thanks for that question. The irony is that these are the children, who actually for them, it could be like this game changer because otherwise, the gaps that fall from you know, home environment, social network access, and all of that is not something which is there. I mean to your question, to be honest, I'm thinking about it in 3 levels, like what can say individual entities or players think about, what can we do as an ed tech collective, and also largely as education as a sector. Ah, and so some of these might be interesting ideas, some of you might already be familiar with. But. I think one good place to start off is to see if we can have at least you know 25% of our platform features or content this part of open source or free to access for anybody. Um, I think the second one that comes to my mind again as an individual is how fast can we move into multilingual and even if possible multicultural content and engagement right? I think the third one especially for it to be a holistic education:  learning is just not about cognitive aspects like you know, consuming content or understanding even application of a content, but also there is a social aspect to learning um in my opinion and there's also there's this practice that needs to strengthen through regular feedback reflection. So. It's not just about content coverage instead of this completion, but to actually expand that definition. Um, I think specifically you know to what you'd asked as well. One of the things I was thinking about is that we really need to start opening up to the counterparts you know in different sectors. So if I'm doing something with edtech on teacher education, like I need to be more proximate with edtech players in teacher education or otherwise in the private sector and the government sector and vice versa with the government entities and private sectors like whichever level you are playing, at with respect to your edtech implementation of solution and offering, like let's start to seek not just other players in the same sector, but across sectors as well. I think having those spaces and those conversations and that exposure might just open up new possibilities. Um, yeah, I mean the one last point I think to be on an individual level here is also a little bit being responsible about product usage when it comes to gamification usage time because like on one hand, yes edtech is accompanied through products so product usage time really matters to what us and the way we kind of close the loops give those instant gratifications to perform things is the idea is to make it engaging, sometimes the best intention for learners to stay longer to learn better. But there's always a price to be paid in terms of what else can somebody be doing at that time and how else can they be learning. I know it's a little counter but I think it's important for us to just hold that perspective at different times. Um, as a collective to be honest, I think I would like for us as a collective to really look at it in phases right? So can we say the first phase is actually you'll replace every admin, every paperwork that happens across the education system government, private, higher education anywhere to be replaced by tech so that tech is just normalized right? Um, and then as we move towards that then actually bringing tech into classrooms and schools to really look at it from a perspective of building exposure and skills. Um, and that's when I think you know the adoption towards teachers really looking at it almost like a co-tutor that's helping them with personalized learning, giving real-time feedback, being able to pace it to on the learner. I think those are things we can really explore as a collective. Um and the last point, right? At a sector level, I think we need to keep being in the pursuit of expanding what the purpose of education is because I really think the future of edtech will evolve on you know on how the meaning or the purpose of education evolves. Today, education is for employment, and on one end we see employment itself is getting disruptive which is getting us to really question what kind of an education is future-ready. But if you're saying education is not just for self-fulfillment but it's also towards what we do towards others and the country or society at large, then I think the possibilities of how edtech would come and play a role towards those will also significantly change. Um, so yeah I think of that I think along with listening and interacting with our learners, students, families, educators just listening and empathizing. I think all of these are a few recommendations.

34:45.10

Ritesh

No I think these are some great insights, very profound thoughts. Thanks, Ashwath for this. I'm sure our listeners would benefit out of this and absolutely I think this is great. I absolutely enjoyed this conversation with you, Ashwath. I think it's been an exhilarating experience for me to kind of gain some of your thoughts and understand because where you sit and how you serve the society is very different than what we do. So absolutely great talking to you, Ashwath. I wish you all the best.

35:16.67

Ashwath

Yeah, yeah, thank you, Ritesh! Thank you for this opportunity. I think these all your questions they were it kind of got me to really pause and think and so I'm really grateful to you to give me this opportunity as well. I have also equally learned and hopefully, we'll be able to have like a second part of this conversation where I'm also able to gather a lot of your perspective on these things, especially from the vantage point that you operate with. So, thank you.

35:49.38

Ritesh

Um, thank you again Ashwath, and hope to see you probably in the upcoming episodes with us. Thank you.