00:00.00

Eric Stano

Welcome, everyone. This is Tech In EdTech. I am Eric Stano, the Vice President for Solutions Consulting at Magic Edtech. This is a series of podcasts where we discuss technology that powers education and improves learning for all. Today, I am joined by Christine Emerton who is the Vice President of Content Strategy and Implementation at Ascend Learning. Ascend Learning is a leading provider of online educational content, simulations, software, and analytics. Christine, welcome.

00:24.68

Christine Emerton

Yeah, thank you, Eric! Thank you so much for having me. It's great to be talking with you.

00:30.69

Eric Stano

It's great to be talking with you as well. Um, and why don't we just get started? Today, we're going to talk about really the transition from those who provide educational materials and services to the larger educational ecosystem. We're going to talk about what's been going on for really the better part of 20 years, which is the transition from print to digital and the lessons learned there. Many of us these days are talking about AI and such but AI is really just the latest manifestation of what traditional educational publishers and edtech companies have been engaged in for many years and many people are at different parts are in different parts of that journey. So we're going to talk with Christine a little bit today about ah, her own journey from print to digital and that of Ascend, the company for which she learns, for where she works. So um, why don't we start there? Ah, Christine. Why don't you tell us a little bit about Ascend itself just to establish some context who are the instructors and students that you serve and what is your what is a sense particular value proposition? How do you approach your customer base?

01:45.40

Christine Emerton

Yeah, absolutely, so Ascend Learning serves a pretty broad range of professions, particularly along the healthcare spectrum. So we serve nurses, physicians, many other students and professionals sort of along the health care, the health professions, EMS practitioners as well as learners and professionals in cybersecurity, fitness and wellness, insurance, construction general industry, and more. You know, I think what makes Ascend unique in the educational ecosystem is our focus on changing lives and we do that by accelerating learning, improving job readiness, and enabling career success. And you know we do all of these amazing things through our authoritative trusted content and we embed that content in software assessment analytics solutions, which is ah a powerful offering I think particularly for those professions that have a licensure and certification requirement. You know, but I would say that at the core, the Ascend team is committed to helping others succeed in their chosen profession with an eye toward the meaningful work that those professionals do and the impact that they have on others' lives and I know that this is the source of passion that's demonstrated by so many people on the Ascend team.

03:26.29

Eric Stano

And it strikes me, that's really interesting because you've got ah one would argue a unique customer base. It sounds to me that you have students and instructors who are in one obviously high-growth professions cybersecurity, healthcare, etc. Ah, but it also strikes me that they are very much on the ground as students. These aren't students who are sitting in a freshman composition class at a college; these are professionals who are also learning their trade by being in a room so to speak being with patients in the healthcare sector. Um, you know it. It strikes me that that presents potentially some unique challenges, particularly with the shift to from print to digital and really being able to help and train those students in a way that that's meaningful. So that really leads me to my next question. Um the pandemic, which is in the rearview mirror for ah for most of us. Um, you know must have had an enormous impact and forced your hand to a degree um on the shift from print to digital. Can you talk about the impact that the pandemic had on the way that Ascend operated and helped its students and instructors?

04:50.24

Christine Emerton

Yeah, absolutely, you know I would start by saying that fortunately, we had a strong foundation for virtual learning prior to the pandemic. So I think we were well situated to ride out those challenges but you know as you as you know we serve professions that have an inherent need for in-person learning and skills or competency development. So think about clinical hours for everybody who operates along the health care spectrum, or fire academy classes that needed to find solutions for fireground training. So It's quite difficult obviously to replicate those experiences in an online environment so that certainly posed an interesting challenge but also an opportunity for us. High-stakes exam proctoring was another area where the Ascend team pivoted quickly to identify and implement some solutions that enabled high-stakes exams to proceed without obviously bringing large groups of students together during the pandemic or jeopardizing the validity of the assessment. So you know I would note that that fully remote learning shined a light on both the learner and the educator experience.

06:19.96

Christine Emerton

So we were already offering a wide swath of e-learning products to support hybrid courses. But the removal of the live educator really brought into sharp relief opportunities to improve the learner experience within our digital ecosystem. So, you know, what product decisions do you make when you're supporting educators who may have no experience with remote learning that certainly came to the forefront for us. Students obviously tended to be a bit more receptive about engaging virtually and relying more heavily on online materials. But again, you know we had some lessons to learn about our learning resources. You know as we've already talked about Ascend serves adult learners across a wide range of professions, and you know we have learners from their late teens, you know, still in high school all the way through retirement people who are moving into second careers. So, we have many different expectations in comfort zones with the learning process and with technology so our you know our product teams are, of course, hyper-focused on meeting the needs of different generations and skill sets. The pandemic also impacted college enrollments in a way that may still be panning out. I think we're seeing some promising data from the field, but I'm not sure that we've seen a true stabilization just yet. And finally, you know, I would point to career trajectories. I think the pandemic inspired a great deal of soul-searching for many people about their careers, about working at all.

08:09.78

Eric Stano

Sure.

08:10.32

Christine Emerton

Certainly about committing themselves to intensive study and the expense of education in its current form. So all of these factors that came out of the pandemic gave our product and content teams reason to double down on digital solutions on modular learning experiences starting to move in partnership with many of our customers toward microcredentials certainly on finding better ways to facilitate seamless engaging learning pathways that are achievable from anywhere at any time.

08:52.30

Eric Stano

Yeah, and ah, you know there's a lot of things that you've just said that are I think are really interesting and and likely resonant with those who are listening. I wonder if we might drill in a little bit. You characterized the pandemic um, as both ah a challenge and an opportunity and you characterized some of the some of the challenges there. You know, different comfort levels with remote learning, different levels of experience with remote learning, trying to speak to a hybrid setting ah, when students actually worked often in the seats at all during the pandemic. Are there other specific opportunities that you seized or specific ways that you overcame the challenges? Are there examples or exemplars of things that you did to to meet those challenges that you think would be useful examples for others to learn from?

09:49.27

Christine Emerton

Yeah, that's a great question. So you know we've talked about how Ascend supports aspiring professionals through their career journey with industry-leading tools. You know pre pandemic, that was what underpinned our organization's work, and the pandemic dynamics I think simply you know, kind of stoked the fire for our teams to move faster and find ever better ways of helping learners into their dream job. So you know at the time the pandemic hit, we were exploring many different options looking at ways to bring simulation and other learning modalities to help learners access content in new ways. So the pandemic was really sort of an acceleration point to help us think about you know, providing new types of resources. Um, I'd like to maybe just give a quick shout-out to our public safety group team who moved quickly to develop and provide some free resources to help support frontline learners. Um during the height of the  pandemic, standing up some you know, additional online learning resources to help them continue their training while they were also focused on supporting folks through through the pandemic.

11:20.00

Eric Stano

And that's actually that's ah, a point that should have occurred to me sooner as you were talking but I'd love to spend even just one more minute on that because I think that is something that may be largely unique to Ascend relative to the pandemic is that the very students that you were serving were the ones who were not able to lock down with the rest of us. They had to be on the front lines and I could imagine sort of a two-year span of a fevered pitch of trying to appropriately serve these students. Is there anything else that you would say or characterize about what it is the free resources sounds like an amazing gesture to the community that you serve um, anything else that you felt like you did during because I think it's a unique vantage point. Um, from an educational provider, you know during the pandemic anything else you would want to say?

12:42.27

Christine Emerton

So we've mentioned that Ascend largely serves adult learners, often people transitioning from you know one career path to another or continuing their education and growth within a given career. You know a percentage of our students are working professionals so they're trying to balance strenuous jobs, families, education, they have often limited time, they have limited attention to devote to education. So you know they're often learning on the go. This was, you know, I think especially true during the pandemic. But I think that has been true of our learner base all along. Um so that you know that underscored the fact that education needs to be consumable, small chunks of content that is engaging, that is personalized, enable students to really focus where they need to and not have to maybe consume larger swaths of content when they have limited time. Um, you know we've talked about the public safety group that's part of our segment serving EMS and fire professionals. So you know, think for any of us, think about the challenges of learning and then imagine trying to learn at a busy fire station.

14:09.00

Eric Stano

Right.

14:10.37

Christine Emerton

Or in the back of an ambulance when you're waiting for tones to go off for the next call. Um, and you know we have a lot of learners who have very long commutes to work or to their educational facility. So um, you know we focused on for example, offering audio versions of our core content as an example of understanding the learner's personas and offering solutions to help them use their time wisely. Um, you know similarly we hear from nursing students who tell us that they're learning at home at night after a long day of work while caring, you know, for young children. So these are the realities of modern life but we are finding ways to make learning easier and more enjoyable even within the context of the modern world.

15:06.13

Eric Stano

Well, it certainly makes me appreciate the learner and what Ascend is doing for them. You know I can barely learn in a quiet room with noise-canceling headphones on. So.

15:14.92

Christine Emerton

Right, right, right! right.

15:21.80

Eric Stano

Ah, the fact that people are doing it with children in cars after long days, sitting in firehouses, etc. Um, you know they they're facing a lot more headwinds than I ever did. So it makes me appreciate what everybody is bringing to the table. Um, what would you? Where would you characterize yourselves in terms of your digital transformation journey? It's obviously something that Ascend has been on for a long time like most educational ah providers of material. Is there a point at which you feel you're at right now?

16:00.51

Christine Emerton

Yeah, so you know I think of digital transformation as both a business imperative and a response to market demand meaning that I think there's ah, a host of drivers behind the digital transformation journey that so many organizations are on now. If there's challenges inherent in producing physical products certainly during the Pandemic, we had paper shortages. We're combating rental books even freely available content in the form of OERs but also very clear changes in learner habits and expectations. We know that the modern learner wants to be able to access learning where they are primarily on mobile devices. Um, you know I think a lot about the I guess the paradox of the print textbook as part of the digital transformation story. Clear evidence obviously that modern learners are influenced by social media platforms, the overwhelming wealth of online content. It is ubiquitous but at the same time the print textbook's sort of still a preferred component of the learning package for many of the markets that we serve. So we haven't walked away from it just yet. But you know we we see that there's good work to be done to shift away from textbook-centric content development to developing enhancing vetting content separately from its outputs or the format in which learners consume it and that's where we're focusing our efforts now. You know I think there's so much to consider in orchestrating digital transformation for a business like ours. You know we are currently rethinking how we organize, tag, store our content for starters in order to improve our agility in the development of new formats of learning solutions. So our teams need to be able to search and discover the wealth of content that we have and that takes a clearly plotted strategy so you know we're thinking about our approach to metadata, the systems that we use to house our content, and the interface that our content teams are using so they can rapidly identify and organize content assets into new types of learning experiences that meet the modern learner.

18:40.81

Eric Stano

Right? So It's a much longer runway because you're thinking not just about the product or the portfolio that is about to hit, but you're thinking about how to reuse ah, that content in various settings over the long term and apply it differently but being able to go back to it and and and reuse it and deploy it as the needs of the market or the student beg is that right?

19:12.16

Christine Emerton

That's right, Yeah, that's right you know I think you know for the safety and security segment of Ascend where I focus my time I think as with many organizations similar organizations in this space. Our content development and management workflows have been anchored on the textbook in the past. I think that's a reality for many of us who have formerly identified solely as a publishing house and now as you know you know we're transitioning to a place where we're thinking about content development that is multi-channel, multi-format from the start that, you know, while we are endeavoring to modernize and enhance our systems for building and tracking content products. So you know I imagine that we share many of the same challenges. Ah. You know with other organizations across the industry. In that, the systems for managing content throughout the development process have centered on the textbook. Um, you know I would say you know from the Ascend Learning perspective, outside of the safety and security segment where I, where I'm dedicated you know we have many successful pure digital offerings at Ascend, and it's been great for our team to be able to scale and learn from those groups as we start to move our segment in that direction.

20:46.26

Eric Stano

Um, right? Well and on that. you mentioned, um you know lessons and you know are there lessons that you've learned as you've confronted these challenges and dealt with systems that maybe weren't initially fit for purpose with the new world that they're serving? Um, are there lessons that you've you've gained over this journey?

21:09.85

Christine Emerton

Yeah, yeah, absolutely and I guess I would say you know our goal our goal as with many similar organizations is we want to be able to offer adaptive, modular, dynamic learning offerings that improve student outcomes. We want learners to love learning with our solutions. We want to captivate, motivate, make the pathway to success clear, and enjoyable. So I think to be able to deliver solutions that meet those specifications requires a carefully orchestrated approach to content management that's really, I think, the dream for learning companies. You know we talk a lot internally about the value of our content which ranks very highly with our customers. But we can always find new ways to unlock that content as we define and develop new learning experiences. Um, you know I think it's one of the lessons I think that we are working through now and you are familiar with it Eric because we are partnering with Magic EdTech on a number of these issues. It's critical I think to to determine what is feasible for you to tackle internally with proprietary systems in teams and where it makes sense to bring in external partners. So I think for most organizations in the learning space, it's a combination, right? So it's like the build by you know partner product management approach. I think most organizations want an ecosystem that comprises some proprietary platforms that reflect key capabilities, along with pieces from external partners that round out the foundation and I would certainly point to our partnership with Magic EdTech as as a great example of that.

23:17.88

Eric Stano

As would I, as would I.

23:21.60

Christine Emerton

Yeah, you know I would also maybe point to the fact that there's a huge change management aspect of digital transformation. So you know leaders need to bring team members along for the journey. It is not. It's not an easy road. So certainly keeping internal teams motivated and engaged is critical. One of the Ascend Learning values is embrace change and so you know we're tapping into that value with our team. Um, in particular making sure that we're highlighting all of the benefits of digital transformation certainly externally for our customers and learners. But for the internal teams as well and change management doesn't end with the Ascend team. You know we also keep top of mind ways to support educators through this process. You know through this time of rapidly changing learner expectations, there's certainly significant pressure on educators to keep pace even you know, when they are receiving great tools and great support from organizations like Ascend Learning but we never want to lose sight of the enhanced guidance and you know improved educator resources that that we can offer.

24:50.53

Eric Stano

I really like that focus and that broad focus on change management in particular. It resonates with me in that I remember a prior company for which I worked engaging in the beginning stages of a shift from a print-based business to a largely digital one and the change management at the time, was a little disconnected, those efforts from what was in fact, in fact, confronting us and I recall um that it wasn't going as well as it could have it eventually changed. But one of the leaders commented to us that you know we're all going to have to develop change muscles um and being ah being a gym fanatic. I commented back that you know it's good for muscles to rest um, which was not a career-enhancing comment on my part but nevertheless, it makes your change management commentary that much more resonant with me.

25:53.20

Christine Emerton

Yeah, absolutely I mean it's easy to say but I think there's you know there's no, there's no easy button for this. There's no easy pathway. Ah, you know through this work but take you know, take it in phases. That's, that would certainly be you know, my recommendation and keep the learner and the customer at the forefront to guide your decisions, that's that's never wrong.

26:13.16

Eric Stano

Right? well, speaking of keeping ah the learner in particular at the forefront. Um, you know there is a nascent move toward ah, really embracing and acting on diversity, equity, and inclusivity principles within education for good reasons. Um, and this is this really a content but also a product bit of the conversation here. Um, how is Ascend approaching DE&I as it's referred to? Is it a priority for your company? Um, can you just talk a little bit about your approach and your colleagues' approach to that?

27:01.35

Christine Emerton

Yeah, be happy to. Yeah, about a year ago, the safety and security segment made a commitment to strengthen our approach to the delivery of DEI-informed content and to our internal knowledge. So we stood up a segment-wide initiative and partnered with an external partner who operates in this space with expertise and their approach is transformation of organizations through a lens of equity and we were fortunate enough to bring together a cross-functional team. We had product content, project management, and marketing, all participating in some pretty intensive trainings, workshops, content audits, which was a really wonderful and comprehensive approach to evolving our point of view I would say. Um, so we're currently in the execution phase of our initiative. We're taking all of the great learnings from our vendor partner and implementing them in our author guidance, our style guides, and our content marketing vision certainly not unique to our segment other brands at a center also on a similar DEI journey, very much a priority for Ascend as a whole, very much committed to this journey. We know this work is never done you know, much like digital transformation. It is a process and a journey happening throughout all of the segments of Ascend and also I think as part of our internal efforts to continue cultivating an inclusive workplace for team members. You know I'd love to mention that Ascend was recently recognized for its ongoing efforts in the DEI space. We were named one of America's best places to work for diversity by Newsweek. So the organization, yeah was very exciting.

29:20.97

Eric Stano

Very nice.

29:27.22

Christine Emerton

So you know the vision statement for Ascend Learning is that we change lives and you know for the internal team that means all learners not not just some learners. So we feel you know a strong commitment to ensuring that all learners recognize themselves in our content and that our learning solutions enable everyone to achieve career success. Difficult to measure success in a DEI journey as I'm sure you know Eric, but I think you know we continue to come back to the fact that we're committed to continue to learn, improve our own mindset, and how we operationalize that mindset so we feel like our commitment and our you know continuing to move forward means that we are succeeding.

30:21.24

Eric Stano

Nice and actually if I could just spend one more minute on this you know I, actually representing Magic, travel around the country and often and presenting at conferences wherein. I actually am agitating for the convergence of accessibility. Folks in departments and professionals with the DEI departments that have been forming because my sense is that these are like-minded principled people who share the goal of ah putting achievement within reach of all students, regardless of background or challenges what have you Um, and that's often led to interesting conversations. Ah, that goes back to something you just said which is that it's always a journey and the conversations tend to unfold around incrementalism and where do you start? Are there any lessons? It sounds like you've taken a very holistic approach.

31:18.59

Christine Emerton

Right

31:28.16

Eric Stano

Both internally, looking relative to your colleagues and your staff and making sure it's an inclusive work environment as well as with the learners. But for those who are just beginning, ah, perhaps a DEI journey, is there any advice that you would give them on how to start that off right? If there is such a thing.

31:50.30

Christine Emerton

Yeah, no, It's a great question, I, you know, and thank you for bringing up accessibility as well. You know I think you know that we think about the development of DEI-informed content and alignment with accessibility standards very much as you know as aligned initiatives. I think that what's been beneficial for our team is to ah maybe start with a big-picture view. Looking at what do? What do we need to accomplish with DEI-informed content as well as accessibility compliance. What does the big picture look like? Put a stake in the ground in terms of where you're headed and then go through the task of breaking that down into smaller steps. I think you know talking with my colleagues over the last year and thinking about the work that we need to do to get to a place where we feel really confident about our DEI stance as well as our accessibility compliance, it's big. There's a lot to do, right? And I think it can be disheartening for folks who are very passionate and committed to this to say we can look at the big picture.

33:04.54

Eric Stano

Right? right.

33:19.52

Christine Emerton

But we're going to take a step back at that point and think about incremental opportunities and think about this as a marathon and and and take it in phases and that's that's really been the approach that we've taken.

33:27.21

Eric Stano

Right.

33:38.47

Christine Emerton

Understand the big picture, the long-term goals but then understand that you can't accomplish all of it overnight, that you need to break it down into smaller pieces and make incremental improvements that are meaningful to customers.

33:47.65

Eric Stano

Right, right. There's no big-bang solution here. But yeah, the sort of the big bang exists in the company's commitment to enacting some change on this front. Well, that's great. Are there any last where we're just coming up on time here? So are there any last bits of advice or reflections that you want to share relative to the various journeys that you've you've talked about here from print to digital? Relative to DEI? Any last little bits of wisdom that you want to share?

35:19.67

Christine Emerton

I guess I would just conclude by saying that this is a time of incredible opportunity for organizations like ours to think about how we serve educators and learners and professionals and so much of that is rooted in technology, innovation that we're seeing now. You've mentioned you know AI, machine learning as examples and I think it can be, it can seem a little bit overwhelming to keep pace with all of the change. But I think we've you know we've never been in a more exciting time.

35:56.32

Eric Stano

I agree.

35:57.33

Christine Emerton

Ah, to really support learners and particularly for organizations like ours that are like Ascend that are committed to supporting people into along their career journeys. It's an incredibly exciting time and I know that that's really the passion that underpins my colleagues at Ascend.

36:19.60

Eric Stano

Well, that's that that's wonderful, and this and let me also say that I greatly appreciate your time and you sharing your experiences. This has been particularly fascinating given again what I keep invoking which is the relatively unique nature of the students and instructors that you serve you know professionals. People who are ah you know, ah really having an impact on the rest of us by virtue of their own careers.

36:50.20

Christine Emerton

Right.

36:51.99

Eric Stano

And being nontraditional students. Whatever nontraditional really means these days but you know students at various places in their lives as I said these are these are not simply students who're sitting in a you know freshman psych class, these are these are people who are out in the world doing some really important things and knowing that you've got and your colleagues and it said have your hand on the rudder for giving them the knowledge and skills and competencies that they need is actually kind of comforting to hear. As a civilian in the world um, when I go to a doctor when I have the need for a fireman I want them to be well-trained and it sounds like Ascend is doing its level best to make sure that's happening. Um, so.

37:36.74

Christine Emerton

That's right, It's very. It's very inspiring. It is inspiring work for sure.

37:39.82

Eric Stano

Yeah, well thank you so much I appreciate your time and with that, we will conclude this broadcast of Tech In EdTech. Thank you very much for listening.

37:50.55

Christine Emerton

Thanks so much.