Title - Building Inclusive Workplaces in Corporate America

00:00.00

Eric Stano

 Hi, this is Eric Stano with Magic, and this is Tech In EdTech. Normally in this podcast series, we mind issues of technology as it relates to education, but today we're going to try something a little bit different and focus on DE& I, or diversity, equity, and inclusion. This is something that we at Magic grapple with on a daily basis, as do our partners who are developing and preparing products for release in the K to 12, higher education, and workforce development spaces. We came across today's guest, Maeve DuVally, through her memoir, “Maeve Rising: Coming Out Trans in Corporate America.” Maeve is a former Managing Director at Goldman Sachs and since the publication of her book, has been a consultant to a variety of corporations, companies, and industry leaders, relative to issues in DE& I. We think you'll find her story amazing. Maeve's opinions are her own. Magic is here merely to allow for a diversity of voices to be heard. Our focus is always on learners and providing each learner with an equal opportunity to succeed. But we think today's conversation is an important and relevant one in the education space, and we hope you enjoy it.

00:01.33

Eric Stano

Welcome to Magic EdTech's Tech In EdTech podcast series. My name is Eric Stano. I am the Vice President for consulting, curriculum, and product strategy. I am joined today by Maeve DuVally, author of “Maeve Rising - Coming Out Trans In Corporate America”. Maeve, welcome to the podcast today.

00:34.30

Maeve DuVally

Eric, thank you very much for having me.

00:37.22

Eric Stano

Let's jump right in and let's start with talking a little bit about why you decided to write your book “Maeve Rising” in the first place. From reading it, you've obviously gone through a great deal in your life, depression, alcohol abuse, failed marriages, changing relationships with your children at times, and finally, the realization that you're trans um, that all started becoming public with the New York Times article in 2019 which chronicled your coming out at Goldman Sachs but that was really only the start. There's been since then a significant amount of press. Following that article, the New York Post, Out Magazine, USA Today, essays written by you in publications like Standard, appearances on a blizzard of news outlets, and even your own Ted TedX talk. Some of this happened before your memoir was published and a lot followed it. So what was your goal in making your transition so public? What did you hope to achieve?

01:47.90

Maeve DuVally

Sure that's a great question. When I decided to come out at Goldman Sachs, I did not court any publicity. But um, the New York Times decided to chronicle my coming out. So, in some ways, it was almost accidental. I didn't plan for that to happen. But what I discovered as a result of that was every time I gave an interview, every time I talked publicly, inevitably various transgender people in different states of coming out or transgender people who might be in college, not yet be in corporate America would reach out to me and they'd want to know more about my experiences and they wanted to share their experience. So I learned pretty quickly that um, my story could help other people. When it got close to publishing my book in August of this year, obviously I'd like to get as many book sales as possible, and fortunately, my job was media relations for Goldman Sachs so I had a lot of built-in relationships with reporters and I was able to leverage those relationships and get largely I think favorable media coverage of my book. So um, and and I do actually hope that my book continues the process that started with my initial coming out at Goldman Sachs and that other people can learn from my story. So transgender people who um, who kind of need to know what other people have gone through. But not just transgender people, straight people, or cisgender people, who may not know a lot about the trans experience. But, hopefully, um through reading my book can learn a little bit more and maybe not think it's such a strange thing.

03:44.83

Eric Stano

Right, right. And more on that, you mine, as I've invoked, a lot of deeply personal ground in your book and in your interviews and the talks you've given since your challenging childhood, depression, feelings of self-loathing, a battle with alcoholism, and the late in life realization that you're trans and the preparation it took to come out at work at a boot chip company, no less. Given everything that you've shared and and knowing that there are many trans brothers and sisters out there reading about your life and likely taking some cues from you and your story is there any one takeaway that you'd emphasize or underscore to make others’ journeys easier than perhaps they might otherwise be.

04:40.45

Maeve DuVally

Yeah, I have one big takeaway. First of all, I have to acknowledge that I've had a lot of privilege in my life. I'm white, I worked at Goldman Sachs, I live in the Chelsea section of New York City which is one of the best places in the world to be an out transgender person, and um, but there's a lot of um, kind of bad things going on in the world, including in the United States vis-à-vis trans people. The political environment um is really bad in a lot of states. Um, legislatures across the country are restricting trans, healthcare for youth, and restricting trans participation in Sports. So there's a lot of bad stuff going on and I know a lot of people in our community are hurting. However, I would just like to emphasize that you only transition once in life and I waited a long time to get to the place where I knew I was transgender and started to transition, and although it can be very confusing and can create problems with people that are close to us who don't understand. I really would like to see more of us in the community enjoy the experience. It's really really important to enjoy the experience. This is real deep self-discovery and it's immensely rewarding as you go through it. So I'd like to see people try and recognize that and enjoy the experience.

06:27.23

Eric Stano

That's wonderful, Um, well, and actually and in fact, I feel like that might almost answer the question that I'm about to ask, but as a follow-up given everything that you've written and everything that you've said in your own talks and in the interviews that you've been giving. You know is there anything that you feel like you might have left unsaid? Is there anything that you feel like might not be breaking through with all of the information and the storytelling that you've gifted the world? Is there anything that you feel like may not be breaking through or something that you feel is maybe Unsaid or said too quietly?

07:14.23

Maeve DuVally

Well, this has certainly been breaking through but I haven't said it. Um, I worked for Goldman Sachs for a long time and while I was working for Goldman Sachs understandably I was a little bit more circumspect, and what I said now I can be a little bit more open now. But. I just really want to acknowledge how difficult the environment is for us right now that we are, our experience is being delegitimized. People are saying that um effectively they're saying that our experiences with transgender people is not a legitimate human experience and that's just plain wrong. It's ugly it's despicable. It's being used for political gain. It's it's just horrible that people are doing that. Um, fortunately, I don't think history shows us that these types of phases don't last forever and I'm quite cheered by the fact that um, some of those messages, on the far right side of the political spectrum. They really aren't resonating with voters which I'm I'm very very happy to see and um, it won't be this way always. I'm very cheered by the fact that there's a much higher percentage of queer and transgender people transgender nonconforming people in the next generation and those people um are going to vote and they're going to make a difference going forward. So, I wanted to really acknowledge the current environment. But what I also wanted to say is that what I've learned from my experience is that periods of pain and confusion are temporary and um, once they pass and once you do get through them, you learn something, and you're better and stronger for it. So I'm convinced that hopefully in the not-so-distant future, our community is going to come out of this a lot stronger and our enemies will be in retreat.

09:21.25

Eric Stano

So there's almost a dichotomy that you're putting forward, you know this should be. This is ah in some respects a ferocious environment or can be um, but that that is temporary and nevertheless despite that this should be a joyful experience for folks, you know that this too kind. 

09:44.23

Maeve DuVally

Very well said. Very well said, yes.

09:58.91

Eric Stano

Okay, nice well, and actually and I think that it's a very clear-eyed dichotomy that you know a lot of people face in a lot of different contexts. But, I think that yeah, that's that's buoying. I think for anybody to hear because everyone knows the world about them isn't perfect, but that this can be that joy can be gleaned regardless of that. 

10:12.61

Maeve DuVally

Exactly.

10:16.24

Eric Stano

So shifting a little bit. Um, you know you gave your book a very deliberate subtitle ‘Coming out trans in corporate America’ and given all the ways you could have contextualized this journey could have been all about your family all about your other relationships but you made it about coming out trans in corporate America at least to some significant degree. Um, why did you choose to focus on the workplace and what was it about the the corporate context of coming out trans that spoke to you as you took up writing your memoir?

10:54.23

Maeve DuVally

Sure, there's a couple of different ways, I could answer that. But I'd say that I came out I realized I was transgender in October of 2018 and I immediately came out in my personal life. But I wasn't comfortable coming out at work yet and why don't people this doesn't apply to just transgender people. But um, other queer people. Why don't people want to come out in certain environments worried that we won't be accepted? So for whatever reason I was worried that I wouldn't be accepted at work and there was a seven or eighth-month lag between the time I came out in my personal life and the time I came out at Goldman Sachs and just because of the New York Times story and the fact I worked at Goldman Sachs it in some ways in some ways. It really was my public coming out. Um, when I came out at Goldman Sachs in a way that it wasn't in October of 2018. Although you know those first 2 or three months that's where I did all the work in terms of um in terms of learning what it means to be trans taking risks with my appearance um taking risks with people that I knew. The other thing I'd say is that um obviously some of it was a marketing ploy, you know coming out in corporate America, coming out of Goldman Sachs one of the premier companies in the United States there was certainly a marketing element to that and I'd say this Eric um I also talk quite a bit about my alcoholism in the book.

12:43.60

Eric Stano

Right.

12:45.71

Maeve DuVally

And I'll tell you for an alcoholic in recovery that writes a memoir in some ways the book can be nothing but a recovery story. So I most certainly see this memoir as my definitive recovery story as well as my coming out story.

13:04.82

Eric Stano

Sure. Right, and I have to say as a voracious reader of your memoir that comes through particularly in the the second half of the book. It's a very powerful, very detailed story of your recovery and it really you know for, at least for the reader It feels like it leaves no stone unturned in that and you really reflect on that.

13:30.98

Maeve DuVally

And Eric as you, as you probably know it's um I think it's an important story for the queer community for the transgender community for the gay community because as you know there's a much higher percentage of drug and alcohol abuse in our community and you know part of that's due to um, the residual stigma there is in this country and other countries around the world. Um, for being gay or transgender and many of us struggle for much of our young lives with that and many of us hide who we really are and we cope with hiding that um by abusing drugs and alcohol. It's not a good thing but it's just more pervasive in our community.

14:22.44

Eric Stano

Right? Well, a good thing is having such a story shared so one can find commonalities and hope in one's own journey towards recovery in seeing those those words on the page. So, so thank you for doing that. Back to Goldman Sachs if I could pivot again, you know you talked about how positive your experience was coming out as a trans woman at Goldman Sachs you know and that's a story in and of itself. Um, you know Goldman Sachs had a long-running lawsuit that just settled months ago in May of 2023 relative to the perception of sex discrimination there and now they're considered an exemplar for other companies relative to the handling of a transition such as yours. For anyone else who's facing similar career-related circumstances, you know at a previously untested workplace. You know the prospect of coming out as part of the LGBTQ community, you know what advice would you have for others regarding coming out in any fashion at work.

15:38.00

Maeve DuVally

Sure. First of all, find out whether your company has a plan to help you. Whether they have anything written down, at the point that I was coming out Goldman Sachs was putting together a series of guidebooks that would help Transgender people come out would help the colleagues of transgender people coming out understand what that person was going through and how they could be allies and help the managers of transgender people coming out. So um, Goldman Sachs was ready and it had a plan, and then the next good thing that they did and I think this is essential in any situation for a transgender person coming out is that, that person be able to enlist the full support of the company. I had somebody in a human resources department assigned to me as almost a relationship manager and any issues that I had in advance of coming out when I was coming out and post coming out that person helped me deal with those and she was really my advocate. So it's important that the company convinces you and you know that they have somebody who will be your advocate when something unexpected happens. And I'll tell you each coming-out experience is different, each person is different, their needs are different, their circumstances are different, and unexpected things will happen and you need somebody at the company that has your back.

17:18.50

Eric Stano

And that sounds like good advice doing a bit of research prior to coming out to find out if your company itself has a plan that would facilitate what you're about to do and your circumstances were such that your company had an emerging plan. So in in that respect perhaps you were you were a little bit lucky and I don't know if you can speak to this given what your unique circumstances were but do you have any advice for somebody who might be planning to come out? And they do a little bit of research and they find that their company may not be as prepared as Goldman Sachs was to have somebody to help facilitate or whatever the case may be. Any advice for somebody who may be in a little bit more of a wild west? So the speak situation,  how would you, how would you suggest that they cope or they plan for for their journey?

18:21.79

Maeve DuVally

Right again I was very fortunate Goldman had had transgender people before me and had some experience. What I would say is especially given social, the way social media is today. There are many transgender people including myself who are already out in the workplace or do consulting for companies to help them make sure they're ready for transgender people coming out and I know for me when I came out,  I needed advice I needed people to help me and I reached out to people and I feel I have a responsibility to give back to people who come behind me and want want to come out. But you know are unsure how to do it and um, they're unsure what they need so I would just encourage people in that position to reach out to people like me and there's a lot of people like me on social media. You can find them on Linkedin Facebook, Instagram, or anywhere, and most of us are more than happy to help. I spend a lot of time mentoring other transgender people about workplace issues and I get a lot of people who reach out to me. But I'm always going to prioritize transgender people who need help who reach out to me.

19:55.68

Eric Stano

Sure, so that so really take advantage for all of its downsides really take advantage of social media and our interconnected world. So if your company is not as prepared as Goldman Sachs was um, broaden your perspective and and find those allies and mentors, exactly. 

20:18.55

Maeve DuVally

Find mentors find multiple multiple mentors, yeah.

20:34.64

Eric Stano

Very good advice. Um well and given all of your success and you know your transition at Goldman Sachs seems like it was largely quite positive. Um, but even given that is there anything he would have done differently?

20:44.47

Maeve DuVally

Yes, there were several instances, one with Goldman Sachs and one with my family. My 2 sons in particular where, I talked about at Goldman Sachs there was a seven or eight-month lag between when I came out my personal life and when I came out professionally. During that time, I became a little bit impatient and there were sometimes I would I would not have a completely feminine appearance but I would have a somewhat feminine appearance and I convinced myself that nobody noticed except me but people did notice. So I kind of wanted to have it both ways I didn't really want to come out yet but I wanted to to feel better about myself and feminize my experience and that can be very confusing. I did the same thing to my family and that was very confusing to them. They didn't know what was going on. So I wish I wouldn't have done that but um I, you know I didn't have any experience doing this. I'm only going to do this once in my life and I did the best I can so I'm not going to berate myself. But in retrospect, I wish I wish I hadn't have done it that way.

22:02.90

Eric Stano

Right, certainly.Although it does sound to somebody who is not trans. It does sound like something that is somewhat natural in one's evolution toward you know, taking more modest steps and beginning to immerse themselves into something that is sort of innate but unfamiliar at the same time. It sounds like a natural piece but something that you upon reflection, you know, which maybe you hadn't done but certainly sounds like it's a natural instinct on one's part so I'm glad you're not berating yourself about it because it sounds like nothing but a natural instinct. Okay pivoting again and sorry for all of the pivots.

22:44.79

Maeve DuVally

Yep, yeah.

22:58.75

Eric Stano

Ah, but once again, you know now that you're a consultant for companies relative to DEI issues certainly with you know some focus on transgender issues but DEI more broadly speaking. You know what advice would you give to leaders of companies who may want to improve their posture on engendering a more inclusive workplace?

23:26.90

Maeve DuVally

So unfortunately this issue has become very black and white given what happened with Bud Light. There's this tendency right now to judge companies on the basis of whether they speak publicly or they don't speak publicly about something. Of course, I would love more big companies to be vocal about trans and queer rights. But I understand in the current environment, why companies don't do that and it's a very complex environment. It's not just LGBTQ+ rights but there's rights for people of color. There's rights for people of various religions. So it's companies can't speak publicly about all these issues but I would say if they do speak publicly if they get some backlash they better not back down because that's the big lesson of Bud Light and Bud Light has lost both ways deservedly so they handle that situation extremely poorly. But, the bigger point I wanted to make is that um companies can really support a certain group of people by making their companies as welcoming as possible. For transgender people what that looks like is it's being at recruiting events and recruiting LGBTQ+ recruiting events and recruiting trans people. It's benchmarking your healthcare benefits for transgender people to your competitors and maybe companies and other industries. It's having plans in place to support transgender people once they come out. It's having very robust employee resource groups or affinity networks whatever you call those which are extremely important in supporting certain underrepresented groups of people. So um, there's a lot companies can do without speaking publicly.

25:40.64

Eric Stano

Wonderful. Okay, very good advice. Um, and the last turning of a corner I will make rhetorically speaking. Speaking about of course we're talking about companies broadly but you know now I want to talk a little bit about Magic and the people that Magic serves you know Magic is a services company that partners with educational publishers, edtech companies, institutions of learning to develop digital products for learning for every grade every discipline and our work ends up in the hands of teachers and students and we as a company are animated by thinking about how we can give every student regardless of who they are, where they come from, how prepared they might be, etc an equal opportunity to succeed. So knowing that Magic serves students and teachers very specifically and that our listeners are students and teachers people in the throes of you know providing education or consuming it. Given your life experience, is there any advice that you might give in particular to today's teachers and students or both given everything we've talked about given your journey? Any advice that you would give this cohort of your readers and our consumers here at Magic?

27:12.10

Maeve DuVally

This is certainly not a novel observation by myself. It's one that's been made previously. But it's something that I really did not grasp well until I came out. The whole idea is that if certain groups of people are excluded then the whole is harmed. The whole idea is if certain groups of people are bullied, discriminated against um, excluded, that the whole organization can't be whole and can't be healthy, and sometimes I think people in the dominant groups really have trouble grasping that but it really is true and that that idea needs to be understood by everybody so that everybody is included and if everybody's included the whole becomes healthy and can move forward more positively.

28:29.62

Eric Stano

Well, that is wonderful advice and a terrific way of ending this conversation, and Maeve, I want to thank you for spending your time. I know it is very limited, particularly these days. Sharing some of your insights with us and I want to thank you again for your book for those of you who are listening “Maeve Rising - Coming Out Trans In Corporate America” is available wherever you purchase your books and your literature. And again Maeve, thank you so much for spending some time with us today.

29:07.98

Maeve DuVally

Thank you very much for having me.

—--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------