00:02.74

Sean Strathy

All right. Greetings and welcome to another exciting edition of the Tech in EdTech podcast. I'm your host, Sean Strathy, and I'm joined today by Anna Edwards, co-founder and chief advocacy officer of Whiteboard Advisors. Hi, Anna. Welcome to the podcast.

00:18.18

Anna Edwards 

Thanks, Sean. Great to be with you guys today.

00:21.10

Sean Strath

And I think, you know, by the time this podcast, we're recording here in December, by the time our listeners will be listening, it'll be January. So Happy New Year to you and Happy New Year to everyone listening. Can you share with us, Anna, um your journey in education so far and how you got to where you are?

00:39.79

Anna Edwards 

Great, yeah. um And Happy New Year as well. So I really started out um from an early age thinking about the structures and policies that that impact the trajectory of public school students in America. So I'm a proud graduate of the Atlanta Public School System down in Georgia. Credit my education there with everything that I've done since, including um you know making my way to an Ivy League school and then getting started in Washington DC working on education policy, but quickly realized that my experience in APS and what came after is not the typical experience for most public school systems in Atlanta, the most public school district students that is, and so that was really what um got me started in thinking about education policy and wanting to get more involved in impacting and influencing some of the structures in place and so um started out working at a bipartisan lobbying firm in DC that was focused on working with governors and state leaders. My co-founder Ben Wallerstein and I looked at some of the best practices that were being used in other sectors whether it was Homeland Security or telecommunications or healthcare care in enabling the private sector to effectively talk about policy change and implement programs at scale. And we wondered why that wasn't being done in education. And that was where Whiteboard Advisors really started for me 20 years ago, for Ben 25. And we ended up spinning what is now Whiteboard Advisors out of that bipartisan lobbying firm. And today, work with education entrepreneurs and investors, philanthropists, um and folks that want to to understand how policy and funding impact the education market and in many cases advocate for better outcomes for students.

02:34.49

Sean Strathy

That's amazing. And I think you know that advocacy of better outcomes for students is what really drives all of us in education. And let's jump into some of the trends that you're seeing right now. I think I want to pick right up where you left off. You had recorded a podcast with the EdTech Insiders back in November. For those listeners who don't know, EdTech Insiders is another popular podcast in the space. And you should all go check it out. You recorded that podcast right after the election. At the time, we knew the presidency and the Senate, but the House was still undecided. You kind of I think you might've said something along the lines. We need to wait to see what happens in the House before we make any predictions. Now we know that the Republicans have the House, Senate, and the executive branch. So what changes do you think we'll see at a federal level for K-12 education?

03:26.50

Anna Edwards 

Yeah, it's been a crazy month in Washington since we recorded that podcast the week of the election. You know a lot we know um and still more we don't know at this point in terms of what the next four years have in store. The House and the Senate still um are like so closely divided. The you know the margins um are really close. So it's not like there's a super majority dynamic where there are packages that are just going to be able to steamroll through. We still think that there's going to need to be bipartisan discussion. Yeah, we're hearing about some of the alliances that are forming across the aisle as it relates to certain confirmations of proposed appointees, et cetera. So while the House, since that podcast, has been decided and we know that Republicans have control of House, Senate, and the executive branch, there's still going to be a lot of conversation that needs to take place to bring together alliances and to work across the aisle.

You know I think the the big difference probably in terms of what we might see that we wouldn't have seen if the House had flipped and gone to the Democrats is the attempt to do something through the budget reconciliation process. Yeah, that would be the way to get something like a tax credit scholarship program to promote school choice on the books. And now that that could happen, um that probably would not have been as likely if the House had flipped the Democrats. I think we will also see um certain proposals from yeah the like we've we've heard a lot about the potential shifts in the structure of the Department of Education, um you know that um with the Democratic House would have made some of those conversations a little more challenging to actually become a reality. And so now we can think about, well, yeah what changes might come? What would require congressional approval? And with a House and a Senate that are both Republican-led, does that you know become more of a ah possibility than what we would have seen with a divided Congress?

05:42.54

Sean Strathy

Yeah, that last point you just made about the Department of Education, I think um a lot of people don't necessarily know exactly what the Department of Education does on a federal level, because so much of what happens in a K-12 school district is decided at the state level.

05:54.36

Anna Edwards 

Yeah.

05:56.89

Sean Strathy

So what would those changes mean if if they if if some of these do go into effect? I mean, I'm not as close to it as as you are. So I've heard of like you know them floating that they're going to get rid of the Department of Education, which sounds scary. But I don't know why what what what do you think that might look like if some of these changes go through?

06:17.78

Anna Edwards 

Yeah, no, I mean, you're right. It was certainly um a lot of hyperbolic discussion during the lead up to the election. um And in talking more with state and district leaders about their engagement and interaction with the department and what it does, the reality is there are certain programs that um that could technically be run by other agencies, right? So if you look at student loans, which is a huge part of what the US Department of Education administers for higher education students, would it make sense for those to be administered by Treasury, an agency that actually has um a huge infrastructure and apparatus set up to deal with um with the exchange of dollars and resources ah directly to individuals? Or you look at the Office of Civil Rights, so there's conversation about whether the Office of Civil Rights functions, which are incredibly important, could or should actually be overseen by the Department of Justice, where there actually is an education division that that also looks at some of the civil rights issues that occur at the state and district level and need to be investigated. And so I think most of the discussion now isn't about whether the federal and US education does not or should not exist. I think there's a more pragmatic conversation taking place about the specific programs and funding streams and where they could or should live. And I think that's going to be an interesting conversation that takes place over the over the coming months. In order to actually get rid of the US Department of Education altogether as an agency, It would require congressional approval. As I mentioned, the um you know the the margins between the House and the Senate, it's so close in terms of being able to get the votes that you'd need to accomplish that. We think that some of the structural changes are probably more likely than actually a full-on abolishment of the US Department of Education.

And there are, again, many stakeholders that think that some of those changes would lead to a more efficient and better outcome for in stakeholders at the state, district, and even student level.

08:40.58

Sean Strathy

Interesting. Now, I'm just trying to put myself in the shoes of a superintendent of you know a local school here. You know how would I be directly affected by some of those changes? Would it would I even necessarily notice, or is that all something stuff that's going to be happening behind the scenes?

08:59.96

Anna Edwards 

Great question. I think for the superintendents that we work with closely, their biggest concern is funding, right? ESSER funding just went away. It's a 20% increase in per-people spending that's gone. There's uncertainty as inflation occurs and the price of providing education to students goes up. you know what is the state going to be providing to offset that loss? And so I think the biggest question that districts have is, what is this going to mean for the funding that I received from the federal government to serve my students, particularly vulnerable students that are supported by programs like Title I and IDEA? And as we look at those programs and the likelihood of changes, where we're hopeful, I mean, again, there's like no certainty right now, but that funding remains stable, likely flat, but potentially with some increases, you could see, um you know, at this Congress and administration saying you know students with special needs have been underfunded historically could they go for an increase in IDA funds rather to support increased funding for students with special needs not outside of the realm of possibility, particularly given the strength of the parent advocacy community there. Title I you're probably the funding that most folks are watching at the state and district level enjoys bipartisan support in the House and the Senate. We don't see changes expected to those programs. You know, there could be other funding streams, you know Title IV or additional funding that could be put in to encourage innovation or yeah have some other sort of priority aligned to the administration, maybe, but um but really we expect funding to remain the same. We didn't see the first Trump administration reluctant to spend money. um and so again, I think for districts, they just want to make sure that they're getting those resources, particularly at this time of ESSER funding going away and we're hopeful that that remains constant as it relates to the way they engage with the department on accountability. You know, I think that's an area that states are going to have a lot more autonomy and deference in terms of asking for maybe flexibility in their state accountability systems and adding in maybe additional metrics in terms of the competencies that we're looking to measure student outcomes in. And so there's some conversation taking place around the country in many state capitals about accountability particularly for high school students, but going down to the elementary level. And so I think that's something that that district leaders will be watching as well, is what could this mean for more flexibility in how we think about accountability? Of course, the civil rights advocates out there are saying, we need to still make sure that there are high quality, rigorous standards and expectations and standards to make sure that students aren't slipping through the cracks. And so I think that's going to be a lot of the conversation that takes place between states, districts, and the federal government over the next four years as we potentially see SRE authorized. It's a long ways off, but but there's some discussion taking place on that already.

12:33.20

Sean Strathy

I think, did you just say that there's discussions about ESSER funds being extended.

12:38.94

Anna Edwards 

Oh, sorry, that was, there is some discussion on that, but no I said ESSA, the Every Student Succeeds Act, so the K-12 Accountability Law.

12:43.71

Sean Strathy

Oh, got it. Thank you.

12:47.84

Anna Edwards 

But I know that prospects would love to see, but would love to see ESSA funding obligation and, you know, spending deadlines extended too, but those are pretty much gone.

12:59.02Thank you.

Sean Strathy

Yeah, that's what I thought. okay, just making sure I didn't mishear you there.

13:02.50

Anna Edwards 

Yeah.

13:02.67

Sean Strathy

So that's actually a great transition to my next question. So we talked about you know mostly on the federal level there. You know most of our customers, I think, follow a lot of the state adoptions and what's happening on a state-by-state level, because that's where the majority of the funding comes from and the majority of the policy. In that last podcast that you recorded, I think you mentioned North Carolina as an interesting state to follow. What other states are doing interesting things on a policy level that you're saying?

13:35.69

Anna Edwards 

Yeah, and the dynamic in North Carolina that we were watching was actually even more political than it was kind of policy-oriented because that was a state that ended up going for Trump in the presidential election. But then North Carolina voters voted in a Democratic governor and a Democratic state superintendent in both of those races. We're really really close, but I think it showed a willingness of voters to look at a split ticket on these issues of education which again was just like kind of interesting from a political observation standpoint and you know and think now it's going to be also interesting to watch what the governor and the state superintendent do with the Republican legislature to try to actually get you know innovation and some of their priorities pushed through. And so that is one that we're watching for those reasons. I think we're also really interested in looking at the states that are thinking about accountability in new ways. I had mentioned earlier the dynamic between state and federal leaders around accountability and the ways that schools and districts and states are you know are measured.

There are some exciting conversations now about looking beyond just ELA and math to determine how a school, how a school district, how a state are performing. And so we've seen a number of states put forward portraits of a graduate or profiles of a graduate where they're starting to think about the competencies that students need to have when they graduate that go go beyond those core academic subjects but really look at their ability to think critically and to communicate and to work in teams and to have resilience, to problem solve. And in today's economy, we know and we hear from employers constantly that those are the skills that are just as important as some of those core academic subjects that are measured now. So I think we're looking at states like Utah and New York, where they are talking about shifts to the regents' exams to look at this more comprehensive assessment system, Wyoming, and um and waiting to see what happens there, and if that could inform federal policy. But it's yeah, it's an exciting time for state leaders. Indiana is a state that folks are watching closely, as well as Ohio for that reason, as well, meaningfully integrating work-based learning and career and technical education into all student pathways, which again we think that that's something that the incoming administration is going to be looking to is what are states doing to provide these opportunities to students to scale opportunities for students. I mean you you'd look at programs like career and technical education and work-based learning and oftentimes those are programs that are really hard for rural districts or even for urban districts to be able to offer to students and that's an area where we're seeing technology and edtech actually play a really big role in helping to expand the types of opportunities and experiences that students have. And I think states are really leading on that. And the federal government and the US Department of Ed and the leadership there are going to be listening and and trying to learn from those states.

17:11.01

Sean Strathy

The CTE conversation and the work-based learning conversation, it's it interesting because um I think a lot of folks are trying to develop you know, centrally a core group of um of offerings to the market that, ah you know, would encompass things like automotive, electrical, you know, trade types of careers. But that also has a lot to do with the local level as well. I think what we're hearing, and maybe you're hearing something similar, is that a lot of districts are looking to do private-public partnerships with, um you know, companies that are in their geographical area that need workers in order to try to, you know, give students the skills that would be successful in those and those roles. Are you seeing something similar or is there like a trend across these states that are trying to implement these types of curriculum that you're seeing?

18:08.17

Anna Edwards 

Yeah. I mean, you hit on it. This is the hot area right now, for sure. You add into that apprenticeships and internships and thinking about opportunities to bring in employers that aren't just Google and Amazon and and big technology and big companies, but also enabling smaller businesses to be able to participate in providing those types of learning opportunities and to be building a pipeline to come into their businesses. And so this is the nut that I think everyone is trying to crack because there's also a realization that for high school students, they want to be experiencing things that will be relevant to their future career and life success and economic mobility and pathways. And so to your point about the tech side, and I think that's where there's a lot of hope that technology platforms can help students to better understand what they're interested in and what their passions are, yeah like a 2.0 version of interest and career assessments, and then be able to map those to an academic path that prepares them for those opportunities and then actually provide the opportunities. And to date, Until now, really, there hasn't been a platform that did all of those things. I think we're starting to see some of those platforms emerge. The state of Washington, for example, just rolled out a platform called School Links that combines all three of those elements. So how do you help assess you know what students are interested in and kind of college and career planning, then be able to map the pathways to make sure that they're taking the courses to be successful to do that and then actually tap into a network of employers to have those work-based learning opportunities and then allow state and district leaders to track how those opportunities are accessed to make sure that there's equal access across rural areas, urban areas, so it's not just a small handful of students that end up having these really meaningful experiences, because that's been the big challenge is scale. And then there are, of course, also solutions that are bringing rigorous and engaging CTE and apprenticeships to students virtually. And I think those are really exciting programs that are gaining a lot of steam as well, both in post-secondary as well as in K-12. And so that's really where we're going to see a lot of emphasis. More than half of the nation's governors mentioned CTE in their state of the state speeches last year, which is usually a good indicator of what state leaders care about and we expect that number to be even greater this year. And again, huge role for technology to integrate, to to merge silos that have existed between K-12 and workforce, and then to actually make those learning experiences available to students. It's exciting. it's exciting for sure.

21:14.02

Sean Strathy

So now I'm curious about something, you just sparked a question. you know we were talking about this kind of shift in accountability and different accountability practices that people might be testing out or rolling out, piloting. you know with With ELA and math, it's relatively easy to measure student success, whether or not they you know are able to you know, read and comprehend and produce writing and, you know, achieve certain things on math scores and whatnot. But in this kind of other model that we're talking about with different pathways for every student, almost like personalized pathways for every student where they might be choosing different career paths, have different experiences to get there. How do you measure all of that on a larger scale?

22:07.56

Anna Edwards 

Yeah, without technology, it is not possible, right? Because what you're talking about is is probably the thing I'm most excited about in edtech right now, which is the ability to integrate data from multiple sources, multiple types of assessments, and be able to have an aggregate picture of what a student understands and knows where the gaps are, what their learning style is, and then create a path that is tailored to them. And we've talked about that, I feel like,

for almost my entire time and 20 years in this space. But the analytics tools really hadn't been there to be able to meaningfully integrate and make sense of the data. And assessment plays a big role in that. And so we're seeing like the Carnegie Foundation teaming up with ETS to say what would a new battery of assessments look like that would actually yeah test the competencies of students in critical thinking and in communication and in collaboration. And I think it sends a big signal when you see a, you know a test ah provider and giant like ETS that could lose a lot of state business in their core you know subject areas by thinking about a new type of assessment, a new um area of competencies to measure. But again, that's kind of a signal that we've been watching. there's yeah There's a ah company Riverside Assessments that's um got a battery of assessments that look at different talents and abilities and potential of students. And so um I think there's there's emerging work in this area. A lot of folks that are trying to figure it out. I know this I mentioned the state of Wyoming. yeah, they've been thinking about what assessments they could use in measuring the non-academic parts of their portrait of a graduate in New York State as well. It's in the very early innings. And so I think for yeah know your listeners that are thinking about um what yeah used to maybe be called social-emotional learning now in many places, it's resilience and non-academic competencies. There is going to be a big focus on that, not just for the assessments, But then once you assess and you identify that there are gaps, you need to actually have the content and the curriculum and the professional development to fill those gaps. And so we're excited to see where that goes. And again, because of where we are now with technology and the data systems that will enable us to see all of that data together, I think it could become a reality in a way that it wouldn't have been able to be pulled off a few years ago.

25:01.25

Sean Strathy

That's amazing. And I think that's a good transition to starting to talk a little bit about tech and artificial intelligence in the K-12 market. I think for most of our customers, you know well, first of all, let me just say anytime that there is massive amounts of data, there could potentially be an AI application that could be used to make sense of that data in a more meaningful way. And I think, but I think for most of our listeners, AI kind of has two buckets of application. One is, you know, in product development, you know, so getting the product developed faster and to market faster. And then there's AI for, you know, student and teacher use, maybe administrators as well. But for individual districts, how are individual districts thinking about implementing AI at their local level? I'm sure, you know, this data question is certainly one application of it, but kind of just taking a step back, how are they thinking about AI?

26:10.00

Anna Edwards 

Yeah, I mean, it's like it's been a journey over the last 18 months or so for sure. The interesting piece for those of us that have been in edtech for a while know that AI has been a part of the edtech solutions that districts have been using for years. We just didn't use that name, right?

and so I think that that's kind of but something to acknowledge, particularly when the knee-jerk ChatGPT moment happened and the district said, oh, my gosh, we need an AI policy and state stepped in to try to provide guidance and, you know, even recently the Biden administration. But I think for districts, they first wanted to make sure that as students had access to AI that conversations about you know, ethics and plagiarism and, you know, that took place and there was some sort of understanding of what was acceptable and allowable use and not, and that was where districts um first response went. We're in, I think, a new, a new wave now where um I'm hearing about districts that are changing the way that they're assessing students because they know that or even their writing because they know that the students are going to go and use ChatGPT or Gemini. So instead of sending a big take-home essay, um yeah they're doing more work in school and then they might actually give assignments that would enable the students to use those tools to provide ah you know a better-written report or project. So I think there's a whole kind of reimagining of what the student experience could look like as a result of AI tools and some districts I think feel more comfortable with that, knowing that students are going to have access to these tools and the real world. So we should go ahead and train them to use them and let them experiment with them now in certain contexts. And I think there are other schools and districts that have put in place really strict you know bans still that they don't want you know any sort of um generative AI tool to be a part of student assignments or writing and that's just a tension that I think we're gonna see for a while. I think there's the teacher side is maybe where we think that there's more promise in realizing some of the efficiencies that AI can bring to bear and also in enhancing the teaching and learning experience. So if you think of all of the different tools that teachers have um in terms of content and assessments, and lesson plans and videos and different ways that those technologies can make the learning experience more engaging for students but that haven't been integrated. That's where we see a ton of potential for AI tools um to make that easier for teachers to to use and to integrate and then to also generate data on what's actually working with students. So I think that classroom environment is kind of maybe the phase that we're going to see more investment and interest in. You know there are platforms like Merlin Mind and others um that are kind of creating an Alexa for the classroom-type experience in a safe environment that teachers are reporting. They're you know they're enjoying teaching more because it's easier and more engaging and saves them time. And then I think as it relates to the implications that those use cases will have on policy, My hunch is that most of the districts that have created AI guidance and AI policies in states are going to end up revising those policies multiple times over the next five, 10 years because the technology is evolving so quickly that it's going to be hard for any policy to be static. And so hopefully yeah the task forces that have come together and the guidance that's been put out, there's a realization among those leaders that they're going to have to work with the private sector to understand the capabilities of technology, work with the school and leaders and the teachers to understand how it's being used, and and then revise those policies accordingly.

30:36.47

Sean Strathy

Now, when there was other giant shifts in technology in the education market, we often had a large digital divide. You know Internet access, you know even today, continues to still be a problem some places, even though there's been major improvements across the country, I think, with infrastructure that's been put in place you know mobile technology, a big digital divide there. Interestingly, you know I think a few years ago I saw that actually the tables had kind of flipped where lower-income students were accessing the internet primarily through mobile devices rather than regular computers. But the digital divide is something that's been in our lexicon and tech market for a long time now. Is there any such thing in with AI or is this pretty ubiquitous across the board?

31:34.99

Anna Edwards 

It's a great question. And I don't know that if the divide exists primarily like by zip code in the same way that we saw with internet access and access to one-to-one devices, you know I think that the maybe the level of kind of in it or I'll say innovation tolerance of district leaders might play more of a role in how students are and enable enabled to use AI um in their experience or in being provided AI literacy training to make sure that they understand AI and how it works and the implications for you know future workforce. So we're definitely seeing it scattered across the country. I think a lot of districts see that this is a tsunami that's coming. And so they're saying, yes, we know that we need to provide um digital literacy training to students. We know that AI literacy is going to be really important. And they are you know working with groups like you know ISTE and Learning.com and Code.org and TeachAI and others to be able to provide at least what they know now to students and teachers. And there are other districts that I think might be in a second wave that are saying, we still don't really know and we need to we need to know more before we move and we put things in front of students. And again, I think that those districts are split not based on, the again, zip code and socioeconomic status of students, but maybe more um just the capacity and interest of the district leaders that feel like they're ready to um to take a plunge, even if they have to course correct later.

33:39.04

Sean Strathy

Interesting. you know just as you were speaking, I was just thinking about you know how ironic it is that just a few years ago, you mentioned one-to-one initiatives. Everybody was trying to get a device in the hands of students, and now we have cell phone bands ah in places like you know New York and New Jersey, at least. On the local level here, we see it on a district-by-district basis, where they're just banning devices altogether. Do you think there's any, do you think that that's going to be like a short-term fad, this whole cell phone ban? Do you think more people will start opening back up as they see, you know, acceptable uses and and trying to teach AI literacy, like you mentioned?

34:25.13

Anna Edwards 

It's a great question. I think one of the real benefits of ESSER funding was that hundreds of billions of dollars went out to make sure that schools and districts were able to provide school online. And so there were massive investments in additional devices and learning management systems and the infrastructure to be able to deliver education in an online environment. Because that has been built up now the reliance on bring your own device I think diminished some which is a good thing in my opinion because a cell phone is not the same as a laptop, you know, or an iPad for being able to engage in educational content. And also, if it's a student's own device, you can't keep them from watching you know YouTube videos and you being on TikTok in the back of a classroom. And I've talked to plenty of teachers that feel like cell phones take the mental health concerns and around social media, et cetera, out of the picture that cell phones in general became just a really big distraction when they were trying to teach. And so so I personally can see why this kind of acceptable use policy and in keeping students from being on cell phones when they should be focusing on instruction yeah isn't a bad thing. I will say I don't think that um we can like ban our way into thinking that you know kids will be safe online because we've banned cell phones because they certainly still have access to cell phones when they're not in class and when they're not in school. And so we really feel it at whiteboard like there should be a real emphasis on online safety and training students and how to be safe online and understanding the negative effects of social media and just being good digital citizens. And so that's really important. But I don't think that cell phone bands are going to impact a student's ability to benefit from using AI tools because most schools and districts do allow access to computers and to tablets that would still enable them to use those tools just in a different format.

37:00.21

Magic EdTech

That's great. Let's shift gears a little bit. Looking ahead, we're you know moving into 2025 here. We've talked a lot about AI. We've talked about some policy things. Is there any innovations or anything that you think are not getting enough attention right now that are going to be really exciting for the next few years?

37:24.05

Anna Edwards 

Well, you know, I'm really interested as I mentioned earlier in like structures and the plumbing of it all. Right? Because you could have great tools. But then if the back-end data that that enables those tools to be fully utilized isn't in place, then it's yeah they don't really work. And so I think investments in data systems are going to be really important. We're seeing a lot of states start to um think about state longitudinal data systems again that actually bring in early childhood, K-12, post-secondary, workforce data. And that's really important if you're gonna then be able to run you know various kinds of data systems or fine-tune student pathways off of that. So I think that the investment in infrastructure is gonna be really important and making sure that edtech tools can talk to one another because we know from talking to teachers and to district leaders that the world of having to have teachers log in to five different platforms in order to get access on to their student's data and to assign it assignments. you know that's just It's really challenging and teachers don't have a lot of time and it causes frustration. And so um I think that we're going to see also an emphasis on better integration of technology platforms and that's going to be really powerful too. So again, like the plumbing I think is the thing that I'm excited about because, without it, we're not going to be able to realize the impact of so many of these great tools. 

39:13.12
Sean Strathy

That's amazing. And yeah, if the inputs are bad, the outputs aren't going to be good.

39:13.19

Anna Edwards 

Exactly, like Project Unicorn has been talking about this for so long, and EdFi, and yeah there's there are all kinds of groups that are working on education, R&D, but without you know without the data and without easy integration, it's really hard for the end users to be able to do that. That's amazing. I think that's a great place to leave us because it sounds like I was going to ask you about advice but this sounds almost like this would be your advice as an area to focus on for other tech providers and district leaders as well. Did you have anything else to add that would be advice?

39:51.34

Anna Edwards 

No, I think that for providers, always like getting in the shoes of the end user is like the biggest you know the biggest piece of advice and making sure that the way that your platform is deployed um seamlessly integrates with the other solutions that are being used. Super helpful. And then you know I think the other piece that I would say that that I didn't touch on earlier, but it's going to be really important is a partnership like the ESSER funding going away is real um and so thinking about ways to creatively fund projects is going to be important um and working with district leaders to understand the various funding streams federal and state that could be applied to a product I think is going to be really important because those discretionary dollars that made it so easy to purchase edtech for the last three years are gone. And in the same vein, schools, and districts in this age with more competition from private schools and charter schools and home schools with education savings accounts and voucher programs, You know, it's gonna be really important for schools and districts to, to be able to market themselves to families and these new um technology tools, whether it's, you know, VR and enabling a better student experience through embodied learning.

That makes a school better able to say to families, this is a next-gen school that's going to prepare your students for a future workforce, but school and district leaders don't typically think of themselves as marketers. And so to the extent that ed tech providers can actually help frame their solutions in the context of a better learning experience for students and why that matters to families to then help to market to families, yeah I think that's going to be really important in the years ahead as well.

41:48.95

Sean Strathy

What an excellent parting piece of advice there. I love it. Anna, this has been fantastic talking with you. Thank you again for joining the podcast.

41:59.39

Anna Edwards 

Awesome, thanks so much for having me, and happy new year everybody.

42:02.76

Sean Strathy

Happy New Year.