00:00.23

Laura Hakala

Welcome to the Tech in EdTech podcast. I'm your host, Laura Hakala. And today's episode is called Beyond the Buzzwords: Delivering Real Impact in Workforce Education.

00:25.01

Laura Hakala

My guest today is Juanita Soranno, Head of Impact at Cengage. Juanita, welcome, and thanks so much for joining me today.

00:31.46

Juanita Soranno

Thanks so much for having me. Yes, so I'm Juanita Soranno, Head of Impact at Cengage and the founder of a nonprofit called Code Connect. I've spent over a decade focusing on how education technology can bridge the skills gap needed in our workforce and in turn creating meaningful economic growth for individuals going through those programs. So I'm super excited to be chatting with you today.

00:57.82

Laura Hakala

Great! We're so happy to have you. So let's dive right in. As Head of Impact at Cengage, how do you define impact in the context of workforce education and what metrics do you use to measure it?

01:11.58

Juanita Soranno

Well, it's been a really personal kind of journey to get here. I went through a program that was focused on upskilling for the workforce. So looking at it from both sides, it's really about creating tangible, positive changes in people's lives and careers. At Cengage, we measure this through a variety of different metrics.

01:34.85

Juanita Soranno

So we look at job placement rates, salary increases, learner satisfaction. But we're also looking at broader community outcomes. So what does it look like for economic growth in the community? What does it look like for social mobility? And ensuring that the programs that we are enabling are not just successful in the short term, but are sustainable and beneficial in the long run.

02:00.16

Laura Hakala

I love hearing that and I love that you're coming to this with a personal background that must make the work all that much more meaningful for you.

02:07.17

Juanita Soranno

It really is, yeah.

02:09.67

Laura Hakala

So how do you ensure that the skills and credentials that are being offered align directly with what employers are looking for in today's labor market?

02:20.30

Juanita Soranno

You know, I feel like it feels straightforward. But as we know, there's definitely a gap between what skills and learners are coming out with from our traditional education system and then what we actually need in the workforce at the moment, specifically in local labor markets. So ah we, along with our academic partners, are looking to employers and industry leaders to understand their current and future needs.

02:50.49

Juanita Soranno

So we're doing regular surveys, focus groups, advisory boards. We're also using data analytics to track job market trends and adjust our curricula. We're really focusing on staying agile and responsive so that we can ensure that our programs are always relevant and valuable and meeting the needs of their local job market.

03:15.57

Laura Hakala

That's excellent because that's definitely something that's going to continue to change and evolve. And it sounds like if you have the right tools in place, you're going to be able to continue giving not only the learners what they need, but also making sure that the learners are aligned for what's to come in their potential careers.

03:35.41

Juanita Soranno

Exactly. The labor force is moving so quickly that, you know, the jobs that exist today aren't going to be the same jobs that exist tomorrow. So we need to know, you know, we're staying on top of what the trends are and what our learners need.

03:52.47

Laura Hakala

Right. And do you feel like data analytics is the best way to stay on top of that future focus? Is that the best tool we have available? Are there other avenues we should be exploring?

04:05.97

Juanita Soranno

I'd say so. It also matters what we're measuring, right? Because then we're putting importance on the exact things that we're measuring. And if we're measuring the wrong things, then our energy is misspent. So really adjusting and being critical about, is this the right measurement? Are we looking at, you know, how students are moving through programs in the right way? Are we incentivizing and promoting the right activities for them to be able to be ready for the job when they enter the market? And those are things that we consistently have to ask ourselves.

04:46.17

Laura Hakala

Yeah, that's great. So in workforce development learning, we typically see programs that are often short-term or intensive. And in these types of programs, what methods do you find to be the most successful in maintaining a longer-term learner engagement?

05:03.98

Juanita Soranno

I think, really fostering that kind of curiosity and creativity that comes along with learning. So improving engagement is key, obviously, we know that from education in general, we have to keep people engaged. So how can we make it meet the needs of a diverse learner base who may or may not be with people that they can study alongside, and may or may not have industry experience? So using a combination of interactive learning methods, hands-on projects, work-based learning, case studies, mentorship. And then also providing continuous support through career services and alumni networks and really makes it so that we can see more success come from the learners going through the programs. We really want to create a supportive and dynamic learning environment to keep them motivated and engaged.

06:08.07

Laura Hakala

Yeah, networks and support that would really, that really stands out to me as being vital because when I think about workforce learners, there's a really unique kind of push and pull that you might not get in other education segments. For example, the learners are very likely to be self-motivated because nobody is making them attend this learning. They want or recognize that they need to be learning these skills, these tools. So there's definitely a voluntary aspect to their learning, which could theoretically give them more engagement and more push. But at the same time, they're very likely also pulled in other directions by different aspects of their personal lives or very likely working while also attending their learning and have a family to support. So it's a really complicated and unique dynamic to these learner profiles that I would imagine that networks and support systems are going to be extremely vital in keeping them moving forward, especially when learning gets challenging.

07:13.03

Juanita Soranno

Oh, you hit the nail on the head, definitely. And I think too, knowing that some of these learners also haven't had experience in more traditional higher education and knowing how to study, how to best reinforce the new learning and could be new skill sets and muscles that they have to, I don't know, create, flex. I don't know what that…you know, that metaphor is. But, it is something new to learn alongside the skills that they're trying to learn and the stakes are higher to your point. You know, everyone who's going through our programs has other responsibilities. So how do we help them manage all of that to be able to meet, you know, their end goal?

08:03.33

Laura Hakala

Absolutely. So that leads me to another topic that you have spoken about before, which is the importance of connecting workforce development to individual communities and existing resources. So what are the most persistent gaps that you see and how can community coalitions help to bridge them?

08:22.06

Juanita Soranno

Yeah, this piece is really dear to me. I definitely see one of the most persistent gaps is the mismatch between the skills people have and the skills employers need. And, you know, as I mentioned before, the labor market is changing so quickly that that's going to continue to happen. So how do we bridge that? Community coalitions and by bringing together different and various stakeholders including educators and employers, community leaders. and Coming together to meet their own community's need for the labor market is going to be, I think, the key to addressing these gaps. We can pool resources, expertise, create more effective and tailored solutions. It's just better when we do it together.

09:13.49

Laura Hakala

Absolutely. So can you explain for our listeners the concept of asset mapping and how that has helped Cengage foster both internal collaboration and partnerships with external stakeholders?

09:28.70

Juanita Soranno

Yeah, asset mapping is a process of identifying and leveraging the strengths and resources within a community. So at Cengage, we use asset mapping to understand the unique assets and needs of each community that we're serving and each partner that we're partnering with. So it helps us build stronger relationships, and those partnerships can create programs that are more aligned with the local need.

So even internally, it fosters collaboration by ensuring that all the teams are aware and can contribute to a shared goal. It's really the underpinnings of having this shared goal, shared metrics, knowing what we're trying to reach together, and knowing who could be at the table with that. I don't know if that last sentence was clear, but you know what I mean.

10:20.34

Laura Hakala

I do. How would an organization or an individual be able to recognize the most beneficial institutions that already exist versus ones that may not ultimately help their learning?

11:16.07

Juanita Soranno

Ooh, that's an interesting question. I think the first part of that, the exploration part is the most important. You can whittle it down once you know the landscape, but understanding what's there first, I think is the most important. So for instance, an individual. So say I am going to learn how to knit. Maybe I've never knit before and I know that I have other responsibilities and I have a day job, but this is something that's been really interesting to me and I want to do it. What would I do first? For my own personal asset mapping, I'd say, I can't be the only one that's interested in knitting. Let me do a quick Google search and see what's in my area. So - knitting my town. And then what will likely come up is, oh, there's a program at the local public library. They meet every week. There's also an online group that shares different patterns and different books and resources. There's also different clubs that I can join that may not be directly related to knitting, but maybe they're related to women my age or people who are interested in arts and crafts. And so by identifying those different organizations and resources, I can then look and say, let me have a conversation with each of these. And I know maybe the knitting time at the public library conflicts with my full-time job.

12:55.70

Juanita Soranno

So that is not the best resource for me, but I know the people who are part of that group may have other resources that they can offer. So if I make it to one meeting and I meet the people who are involved, they can point me to more resources. So I think not just like crossing off specific organizations or resources at face value, knowing that there could be more that you can uncover that will meet the need that you have. So maybe I leverage the online resources and I join another like women's club who happens to have two of the people who go to the knitting club as well. And then we end up having our own knit and book club on the weekends when it works for the three of us. And then that will help hold me accountable. We're all working toward becoming knitters or better knitters and then I can, you know, meet the goal that I have.

13:53.81

Laura Hakala

That is such a great small-scale example to illustrate this point. And it also leads me to my next question, which is, when you're designing scalable solutions, how do you ensure that they remain relevant to the unique needs of local communities?

14:10.00

Juanita Soranno

Yeah, so scalability is definitely important in the way that I think about impact work because we want it to be able to be replicable and we want to be able to share the learnings that we have when they do and don't work. But it has to be balanced with relevance. If I try and take my knitting program into a place that has a really terrible yarn infrastructure, that's not gonna work, right? We're not meeting that other basic need. So by doing a really thorough needs assessment for the community that you're looking to serve, it'll help tailor the programs and address those specific local challenges. So going back to including community members in the design process. It really ensures that the solutions are practical and sustainable.

15:06.60

Laura Hakala

That makes a lot of sense. So let's talk about some different types of workforce learning. And our perception of different types of workforce learning can change and evolve over time. So with that in mind, let's talk about boot camps, which have historically been a big part of workforce development. Where do you see boot camps heading, especially in aligning their curricula with the evolving labor market needs?

15:32.35

Juanita Soranno

Yeah, I, you know, I'm a product of a boot camp and it's been really interesting to watch the progression and changes in that specific mode of instruction. I think of it as a very valuable pathway to employment. I think that in the future and even now we're seeing that they're becoming more specialized and flexible with a greater focus on emerging technologies and soft skills and, and I think that the key will be to maintain strong connections with industry partners to ensure that the curricula that they're creating for boot camps remains up to date and relevant. And, you know, we've seen something's happened with bootcamps that did really well in 2018, 2019, and have now switched and reconsidered modalities once the pandemic hit, and then have reconsidered it again to meet the influx of AI and m semiconductors. And I think that even outside of technology-focused curricula, there is a huge opportunity for people to have a very intensive, short program that leads to practical and tangible skills.

16:57.18

Laura Hakala

So what approaches could be most effective for adapting bootcamps to meet the specific needs of local communities?

17:05.37

Juanita Soranno

I think that it can be achieved through a deeper understanding of the communities that they're serving and the labor market. So going back to our data piece before, and really looking at like the microcosm of the labor market in the community that they're looking to partner with and serve.

17:31.14

Juanita Soranno

What's going on there? And then being able to design programs that are flexible, that can cater to different skill levels, industries, m but still leverage that ability of scale and replicability. So finding that balance is going to be really key.

17:49.23

Laura Hakala

Right. So for something that does on its surface need to be so individualized and so personalized to a community or a facet of a career or a specific small subset of individuals, is it even something that is easily scalable or sustainable? You know there seem to be some real challenges in the very nature of making curricula like that sustainable and scalable. So do you have any thoughts around the sustainability and scalability of them?

18:23.71

Juanita Soranno

I think everything worth doing is going to be a bit hard.

18:27.75

Laura Hakala

Excellent.

18:28.08

Juanita Soranno

And we've talked before about, you know, making things more modular. Being able to use them more as puzzle pieces to meet the end need, versus recreating kind of a silo of curricula. And I think that's really gonna be the path forward. We know that industry will require specific skills, regardless of where they are, regardless of the labor market that is hyper-local to them. And with the globalization of jobs and being able to remote in, I think that there are more things that can be cut and paste, or copy paste, and then just adding layers of things that meet that local need that may not be addressed in that core curricula.

19:22.23

Laura Hakala

Yeah. Okay, so there is certainly more to workforce development than boot camps. Let's talk about micro-credentials, which are often touted as the future of workforce development. How do you see them playing a role in bridging the gap between education and workforce needs?

19:41.13

Juanita Soranno

Yeah, I mean, I think that ties in perfectly. Microcredentials are a game changer. They allow learners to gain and demonstrate specific skills in a short amount of time and by aligning them correctly, it makes them highly relevant to employers who are looking for candidates with those targeted competencies. So if you offer a range of microcredentials, it can help build an individual's portfolio skills that can evolve and align with the needs of their own labor market.

20:17.41

Laura Hakala

Yes. I mean, speaking of topics that are near and dear, microcredentials are definitely that for me. I am a strong believer in them and a proponent of them. And what I have found in my path and my research is they are extremely valuable and beneficial to the learner. One of the largest challenges that I've seen is getting the employers to see the same value and merit in microcredentials that the learners seem to be seeing. And so for me, one of the best pieces of advice I have is for employers, organizations, companies who are having labor shortages, who are having gaps in their hiring, who are struggling to find qualified employees, I would recommend that they explore microcredentialing programs on their own. And once they start to get some firsthand experience in the learning, then it might help them to see the value in those programs and then be more willing to hire learners who have taken part in them.

21:28.91

Juanita Soranno

Yeah, definitely.

21:30.60

Laura Hakala

So what metrics do you focus on in order to demonstrate the ROI of microcredentialing programs to both employers and funding agencies?

21:42.26

Juanita Soranno

Yeah, for that, it's the same across the board, whether it's a full, you know, 12-month program, or if it's only meant to complete over four days. We're still looking at what is the learner satisfaction. Did they have new learning? Are they getting the jobs that they were hoping to get at the end of it, or the salary increase, or the skill attainment? So some qualitative pieces, but then also over the long term, measuring the changes in open roles in the specific and locality tied to the increase in learners taking these micro-credentials in those areas, and if it's starting to bridge that gap of you know underemployment or non-employment in those industries.

22:36.51

Laura Hakala

That sounds like an exceedingly difficult thing to not only measure but also to track in the long term.

22:46.72

Juanita Soranno

I think that there are a ton of different services out there that have really great data. I think it's just aligning it. You know, you can start to get weighed down by how much information is out there and where you should focus on, what are we measuring that's important again. But seeing some of those basic pieces, did the learner feel like they learned something that was new and relevant to them? Has it helped them get a better job? And on the other side, our employers, even though, you know, our education is meeting that need, are they hiring those people or are they still looking elsewhere? And if they are looking elsewhere, that's where that tie back to employers and industry leaders can open up a conversation again to say, okay, our assumption was that this would meet that need, but it doesn't seem it. And those conversations can uncover like, Oh, actually, we only need this one other thing. You know, like, we need business management training or project managers that have the expertise that they're getting out of your program from, you know, whether it's micro-credentials or a full like trade.

25:42.56

Laura Hakala

So how can organizations integrate micro credentials into their broader workforce development strategies to maximize their impact?

25:51.01

Juanita Soranno

So I think that they can align them with their overall training and development goals and to increase retention, but also it can help them map out the skills needed for various roles and then identify micro-credentials that can fill those gaps.

26:08.35

Juanita Soranno

Something that we've been doing at Cengage work is being able to take a job description and with InfoSec, they are able to identify specific skills that are outlined within that job description and reverse map it to different courses that they offer. It's pretty incredible.

26:32.40

Juanita Soranno

And they leverage AI to do that. So I think by doing things like that, backward mapping from current roles that they do have and knowing the skills that they need can create a more flexible and responsive training program that meets their needs and then also doesn't waste the learner's time.

26:52.28

Laura Hakala

Yeah, I've read a lot about the importance of skill-based hiring and allowing skill transfer and leveraging existing skills to allow internal employees to leap into new roles. You know, if they already have maybe 60% of the skills needed for an aspirational role, maybe instead of hiring a new person, maybe look at your existing team and allowing them to leverage their existing skills and providing them with internal training to, you know, promote that internal growth before you look elsewhere. And also really relying on the importance of the skills needed for that role as compared to focusing more heavily on a specific degree requirement. You know you can really find a lot of value and benefit to your organization and to the communities around you if you allow skill leveraging and skill transfer and really come from a place of skill-based hiring.

27:56.30

Juanita Soranno

Yeah.

28:02.56

Laura Hakala

Okay, so what innovations in education technology and workforce development do you think will shape the future of this field? Or what are you excited to watch for?

28:14.53

Juanita Soranno

Oh, well. I am definitely a nerd and I am very excited about the potential that artificial intelligence will play, increase data and data analytics to personalize learning experiences. I am very tech forward and I think that leveraging tools and creating the tools that we need also can help us better understand learner needs, provide tailored support. And then also think about the lifelong learning journey of an individual. So, you know, just thinking about my experience or your experience, it has been a windy road where I have continuously had to learn new skills to meet whatever I was facing at the time and or the job that I wanted or

29:10.17

Juanita Soranno

You know, even in this role, thinking about the vastness of what we could try and work toward, how do we focus? And like, what skills do I need to be able to do that? So how do we then make it easier for individuals to continuously upskill and reskill throughout their careers and understand what that could mean economically, personally, and then also for their communities?

29:38.06

Laura Hakala

What trends are you noticing in employer expectations for workforce readiness and how do you adapt to meet those demands?

29:46.99

Juanita Soranno

Well, employers are increasingly looking for candidates with both the technical or hard skill and the soft or durable skill. So they want individuals who can adapt to the new technologies that are coming into their workplace to but then also be able to work collaboratively to manage others, and just to be a good teammate. And to meet those demands, we're incorporating more project-based learning or soft skills training into the programs. And we're also working closely with our partners to understand their evolving needs and be able to adjust offerings accordingly.

30:34.38

Laura Hakala

That's a great point. And something that I tend to fall back on a lot when I'm thinking about workforce development is I like to make sure that there, or I'd like to see less of a division between the quote unquote hard skills and soft skills. You know there's no reason why the courses and the content can't integrate both into one very positive, learning experience. You know, while you are learning the specific hard skill needed for that career, we can also integrate communication by practicing real-world case studies as part of the learning to teach what effective communication looks like. You know that's just one small example, but obviously, we can integrate both of them into successful workforce development.

31:28.91

Juanita Soranno

Totally agree. Nitzan Pelman has been working for quite a while on social capital and how to learn those skills that people may not have been exposed to previously. So I think still in that soft skills, durable skills bucket, there are so many things that are so interconnected and that it's necessary to keep exploring. Like it's not just you know how to be a great leader. It's also, how do you have productive conversations at a networking event? How do you navigate new spaces when you have now learned skills that will put you into an entirely different corporate culture that maybe you've never been exposed to before because you have been working in like more individual, more labor-focused roles. Or you know just something totally different. Maybe you're coming out of the military and now you're working at a Fortune 500 company and where you're meant to push back against your superiors when they ask you for your input and your questions. How do you navigate that when you've been ah trained to do something else?

32:44.15

Laura Hakala

That's a really great point. So what advice would you give to EdTech providers and workforce leaders who are looking to create impactful and scalable solutions?

32:54.89

Juanita Soranno

Stay focused on the learner. Really continue to put them at the center of everything that you do. By doing that, then you're also putting their community at the center. So understanding their needs, building solutions that are relevant and accessible, and collaborating with all of those individuals that we mentioned before, as you're doing your asset mapping exercises, who are the employers that you need to speak with, the community organizations, the other stakeholders. And then by doing that, you'll be able to create comprehensive and sustainable programs.

33:30.83

Juanita Soranno

Also, I'd say on top of that, be data-driven, figure out ways to to take in all of the information that you're getting because we are all getting a lot of information, and how to take that, analyze it, and evaluate what is important to improve your programs to make sure that they remain effective.

33:54.55

Laura Hakala

Well, Juanita, as always, it was an absolute pleasure to chat with you today. Thank you so much for your time and your thoughts. And to wrap things up, are there any closing thoughts that you'd like to share?

34:06.34

Juanita Soranno

Thank you. I'm so glad you had me today. I think you know, remembering that according to the Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development, we have an estimated 1.1 billion jobs that are going to transform in the next decade. So this is relevant to all of us, whether we're in the work directly or not. So stay curious, stay connected, and put the learner at the center of your efforts. And I think that if we're all doing that, we can build a more skilled and resilient workforce.

34:40.74

Laura Hakala

I could not have said that any better. Thank you so much for that. And on behalf of Magic EdTech, thank you all for joining us on this episode of Tech in EdTech.

34:49.85

Juanita Soranno

Thanks Laura