00:03.02

Eric Stano

This is Eric Stano with Magic EdTech, and this is the Tech in EdTech podcast. I'm joined today by Christine Cruz-Vergara, the Chief Education Strategy Officer with Handshake, a tech platform that enables students and recent graduates to find their next opportunity. Christine, welcome, and thank you for joining me today.

00:23.75

Christine Cruz-Vergara

Great to be here. Excited to chat.

00:27.14

Eric Stano

Thank you. Thank you so much. Well, why don't we just jump right in, and we'll start, actually, by creating a little context. And if you could just maybe give our listeners, I've already introduced the fact that you're the Chief Education Strategy officer at Handshake, but give us a, if you could, a quick snapshot of your background in your own world, in your own words rather, and, and your current role at Handshake, what that entails.

00:51.65

Christine 

Sure. So my current role at Handshake is the Chief Education Strategy Officer, which essentially means that I run our education side of the business. And I have the privilege and honor of partnering with over 1600 universities and colleges across the nation to really help them support their students in finding their first internships and first jobs. And now we're even seeing many of their graduates come back for their second and third jobs. And we do that because we are overall a network of connecting those students to great opportunities from amazing employers on Handshake's network. And prior to being here at Handshake, I've been here for about six and a half years. I used to work in higher education for over a decade. I've worked in a number of different student services, but primarily worked in career services. And so I've had the pleasure of working at all of the Georges in the D.C. area, GW, Georgetown, and George Mason, and also served as the associate provost for career education at Wellesley College outside of Boston.

01:51.67

Eric Stano

Fabulous. And before we dive in, and I always use that as a preamble, and then what I force people to do is dive right in. So let me ask you a pretty direct question. You know, why do you think now is a pivotal moment for higher education to rethink career services? What should leaders in higher education be paying attention to?

02:12.44

Christine 

Well, it's a critical time right now because the value of higher education is very much being called into question. A lot of public surveys, public polls around how people are feeling about higher education and whether they think it's worth it for their children or for people in general to be going to college has really declined, unfortunately.

02:31.57

Eric Stano

Right

02:32.40

Christine 

And I think if higher education wants to continue to stay valuable and, more importantly, stay relevant, I think they need to continue shifting their narrative. And I think a huge piece of that is tying what students are learning, what they're gaining, how they're developing, to really practical, tangible outcomes such as a career. We know that the majority of students go to school in order to better their life, in order to get a better job, in order to live more comfortably in the future. And we shouldn't shy away from that reality.

03:06.54

Eric Stano

Right, right. And I think that, you know, you and I have not spoken before this, but I get the sense that a theme of relevance relative to higher education is going to emerge. But let's see if that happens.  So you've spent time, as you said, on both sides of the equation. You've been at institutions and leadership positions, and now you're at the intersection of tech and higher ed. How has that experience shaped the way you think about student support and career readiness in particular?

03:38.92

Christine 

I laugh because it's been such an interesting experience to truly be on both sides and to have the understanding of the obstacles, the bureaucracy, the timing of how you get things done on the ground within higher ed. There are so many good people doing so much good work in our education systems.

04:02.69

Eric Stano

Right.

04:04.43

Christine 

But the system itself is actually built so that there's diffused authority, there's shared governance. And that inherently means that it sometimes takes longer. in order to pilot something, in order to change something, in order to move something along. The timing might take a semester. It might take an academic year.

04:27.55

Magic EdTech

Right.

04:27.92

Christine 

It might take multiple academic years. And outside of higher ed, that's just not the case, right? So then I move into tech, which is literally the exact opposite. Things happen in a matter of weeks, in a matter of days, sometimes in a matter of hours. And so the speed and the timing is probably one of the most

04:42.89

Eric Stano

That's right.

04:46.59

Christine 

jarring differences between those two experiences. But what I have found is that both in tech and certainly in ed tech here within Handshake, we also have so many amazing, smart, intelligent people that are doing good work and really trying to ensure that students are supported, that they can find success, that they're able to kickstart their careers in a really positive way. The outcomes and the intent, and the mission is actually very similar, but the strengths and the ways in which we are able to do it are different. And so at the end of the day, we actually really need each other. And when we can combine our strengths together, that's when you see. success. It's not one side or the other side being able to do it better. It's actually figuring out what are you good at. How do I partner up with somebody else or another entity that is good at the things that I might not be good at? And how do we do that together?

05:43.04

Eric Stano

Nice. And I have to say, I enjoyed your characterization of higher education and it's its pace and its structure. And it struck me that that sounds a lot like the American political system. So there's a great deal of editorializing I would love to do, that I'm not going to on how these are like-minded entities and they should get along. But that's for another time and another podcast. So, you know, what changes from your vantage point in student job-seeking behaviors, getting back to really the mission of this conversation, what changes in their job-seeking behaviors have stood out to you in the last few years?

06:23.08

Christine 

In the last few years, I would say we are really seeing students in the most recent graduating classes prioritize stability much more than I have seen in previous years. So over the course of my career, I've advised thousands of students on how to get a job or there their first internship.

06:37.10

Eric Stano

interesting

06:43.79

Christine 

And In just the past three years alone, the number one factor, both from our survey data and also in anecdotal conversations I've had with a number of recent graduates, they say, I'm seeking stability. I want an employer or a company, or an industry that feels secure. And in large part, that's because of how much instability they've already had to deal with over the course of their late high school and college careers because of the pandemic.

07:15.04

Eric Stano

Nice day.

07:15.12

Christine 

And they had to they had to pivot. They had to adapt. They had to be really gritty. They've had to relearn things. And for them, they're going into this next stage of life. wanting a little bit more stability. And so I think that's been a really interesting piece around the behavior change. I think the other piece is benefits. This generation, at a much younger age, is asking about and thinking about benefits, benefits like retirement.

07:44.41

Eric Stano

Right, right.

07:44.88

Christine 

In the past, a lot of previous generations were They didn't ask about retirement right away. it was nice to have if the employer had it, but it wasn't it didn't feel like a necessity in the way that this generation is already thinking about that. And I think the third behavior change that I would really call out is that this generation is truly unapologetic about their values. And one of the values that they have is a desire to have more of a work-life balance than I think the previous two generations, at least, would probably have sought out. And I think in large part, again, it's because of this very formative time when they experienced the pandemic and we all spent hours, days, weeks, months, really thinking about what's most important. What do we really value? And I think for a lot of them, they've come away thinking, I don't want to work for the next three or four decades before I can live the life that I really want. How can I try and merge those two together? earlier. And that might mean I live in a smaller city. That might mean I don't have the most lucrative job. That might mean I save up a little bit differently, but I could probably do it. I just need to readjust some of my decisions.

09:03.88

Eric Stano

Right. And when you said stability, I was thinking, oh, everything old is is perhaps new again. But that reflection on the work-life balance that, you as you said, hasn't been necessarily true for the last couple of generations. So mixing a little bit of the new with the old to come up with something completely different in terms of their values and their goals. So that's really interesting. Yeah. What do you think higher, relative to career services on campus, what do you think higher ed leaders often misunderstand or underestimate about the role that they play on campus?

09:41.57

Christine 

I think higher ed leaders don't often realize how critical career services and the leader of career services can be. to the overall undergraduate experience. I think at too many schools, it's still seen as a peripheral office. That kind of exists on the sidelines.

09:58.98

Eric Stano

Sure.

10:01.40

Christine 

And if a student walks in, they happen to have a good experience, fantastic. 

10:06.64

Eric Stano

Right.

10:08.09

Christine 

But it's not truly embedded. It's not truly integrated. There are very few schools that have any mandatory requirements, for example, for students to visit their career center or to have an internship, or to have structured career education where you actually learn the process of getting a job, right?

10:15.38

Eric Stano

Right.

10:25.21

Christine 

There's a process to that, and not everybody knows it.

10:26.95

Eric Stano

Right.

10:27.97

Christine 

And not everybody has family members who can teach them what that looks like. So these are the types of things that should actually be embedded into the college experience, whether you want to do that curricularly or you want to do it co-curricularly, but you have to build that in. And so I think right now, a lot of my peers that I used to work with in career services, I think a lot of those leaders, as fantastic as they are, still don't have a seat at the table.

10:53.08

Eric Stano

Yes.

10:55.00

Christine 

And the table I'm referring to is the president's cabinet. They don't have a seat at the table with the college deans. They don't have a seat at the table with the provost. They're not seen as equals in that way, when in reality, a lot of the career center leaders are sitting on and incredibly valuable data, much of which they get from the Handshake platform, but also workforce data around what employers want, what skills they're looking for. They could really provide quite a strong feedback loop for the institution, but I don't think that that's necessarily valued in many places, or not valued as highly as I think it should be.

11:32.15

Eric Stano

Yeah, and there's that that bit of relevance that I thought would continue to emerge here, that, you know, that data, those data, rather, that they could collect for their own existence and health as institutions, being able to to, you know, act on the data that exists within that institution, I think would help them achieve their their own, their own goals. Now, if you could reimagine how institutions were to think about this, you've obviously said, you know, sort of a seat at the table, you know, within the president's cabinet. If you could reimagine how institutions think about the function, you know what would you prioritize? What would you have them change first if you could rank order what you would want to see changed?

12:19.59

Christine 

The first would be the organizational structure and the reporting line. So similar to what I was just talking about before, you need to really think about where it makes the most sense within your institution.

12:24.96

Eric Stano

Yeah.

12:29.66

Christine 

For some schools, it makes sense to have it within the academic sort of division and have the person who runs career services report up to the provost. And you have that person at the leadership team table with all of the college deans or faculty heads or department heads, and they're genuinely colleagues together. And they're learning from each other, and they're sharing information on a weekly basis. There are other schools where I would say it makes more sense to have the Career Center report up through perhaps admissions and enrollment management.

And that's more advantageous to you and how you want to tell your narrative or your story to attract incoming students.

13:08.91

Eric Stano

Right, right.

13:09.03

Christine 

There are other places where it might actually make sense for it to remain, and in student affairs, which is the historically the place where Career Services used to sit. I would venture to say that varies a little bit depending on the culture of your institution, depending on the leadership of your institution. I think the thing to remember for college presidents or provost is that Career Services is ideally, if run correctly, is a proactive unit. It's a proactive unit. They are looking ahead.

13:41.46

Eric Stano

Interesting.

13:41.61

Christine 

They are looking at the future. And so you don't want it to be mixed in with a whole bunch of other offices that are reactive or that are crisis-oriented because you'll never end up giving it any time or attention or space, and it will end up falling to the back burner. So that's just something that you have to think, think about.

14:01.05

Eric Stano

Right, right.

14:03.85

Christine 

I think the second thing after reporting line and sort of structure or structure is, in my opinion, the next most important thing is that you hire the right leader. The career services leadership position, that executive position, has drastically changed over the past 15 to 20 years.

14:15.27

Eric Stano

Right.

14:23.93

Christine 

A long time ago, that person that would have been successful in that role was primarily an operational leader. Could they keep everything running? Could they run the different services? Did they generally know some of the stats and numbers around how their office functioned? Could they be a good supervisor, right? And that's not the role anymore. You now need a leader that is politically savvy, that understands how to navigate the higher education landscape, that can speak well publicly, that can really tell a story and set a vision. And if they can't set the vision, they need to have a leadership bench that can, and they need to at least be the person who can convey that vision. They need to be able to build relationships and garner trust and credibility across a large swath of stakeholders, from faculty to students, to alumni, to parents, to staff and administration, I mean, everybody. And that's hard. And so you're looking for someone who honestly is going to probably spend more time external than they are internal to the day-to-day operations of their staff. And this has to be a person that is a strong leader with strong conviction, a strong backbone, and knows how to hire a leadership bench that can actually run the day-to-day operations of their office. And that is a tall order, but that is what schools should be looking for.

15:47.52

Eric Stano

And I am again struck by the commonalities between now this particular role in this office and our political system. But again, I will leave that in abeyance. So let's throw open the hood. And I always use that phrase. And I live in New York City, and I've never owned a car, so I only vaguely know what it means, but let's throw up in the hood, as people say, and and get into some some insights from from Handshake, the the graduation report or or the platform activity, some some insights that you think higher education leaders need to hear. Now, you've already revealed some of what you're seeing in students today, the focus on stability, on a work-life balance, and things of that nature. But are there other data points or or you know items that you've you've understood from the platform activity that you think you think folks really need to hear?

16:46.55

Christine 

Sure. I think there are a few things that I would call out that perhaps are not the top line metrics that I've already that I've already shared with you. I think, you know, one is that the majority of seniors said that online career platforms like Handshake are among their most trusted sources of job market information. And I mention that because I think it signals how differently today's generation gets information than previous generations, right? So I was part of the millennial generation.

17:19.08

Eric Stano

Yes.

17:20.67

Christine 

I've obviously advised folks that were part of the boomer generation, Gen X, millennial, and now Gen Z. They are different in the way that they consume information. Gen Z is different. They do go online. They do look for bite-sized information. They do crowdsource a lot of their information. And so it's important for both higher education and, I would argue, our career services partners to really take advantage of that.

17:47.92

Eric Stano

Yes

17:49.33

Christine 

If you know that that's where a lot of your students are going to get information, how do you take advantage of making sure that your information is in those places?

17:58.74

Eric Stano

That's right.

17:59.08

Christine 

That you can reach them, right? It's a different channel for you. They might not just come into your office anymore. You might want them to, but that might not be the way that they're primarily getting information. So you have to make sure that you're getting your information into the places where they're already going. And I think that actually leads to one of the other stats that I would actually call out, so 44% of seniors said that they really also trust their university career center, but only about 29%, 30% said that they used it all the time.

18:36.16

Eric Stano

Why do you think that is?

18:36.52

Christine 

That's a gap. And you look, and you actually, you look back, and 51% of seniors said that they wish they had visited their career center more.

18:46.26

Eric Stano

Sure.

18:48.00

Christine 

And so I think, again, there's this opportunity to close that gap. They wish they had, they trust it. They just didn't use it.

18:55.48

Eric Stano

Right.

18:56.70

Christine 

And so I think your question of like, why, why didn't they use it is a really good one. And I think there's a few reasons. So I think one, I hear this from students all the time. And let me be honest, I was one of those students who never used the career center. I then went on to run one, but I never used one as a student.

19:12.14

Eric Stano

No, no, it's taken everything in my my body to tell it not to reveal that I too am one of those students who never did that. But please continue.

19:22.00

Christine 

Right. So if you think about us, right, I didn't use it because I knew that I was going to go straight to grad school. And so for me, I didn't think the career center was for me because I was going to grad school, and it's called the career center. So I just didn't.

19:35.68

Eric Stano

I didn't use it because I thought it was one of those things that just sort of decorated campus, and it was next to some crisis centers, and it was not relevant, as you were already suggesting is the problem with many of them. So anyway, again, please continue.

19:50.05

Christine 

Yes. So that's part of the issue is making sure that there's awareness across the student body of all the services and all the different types of issues that a career center actually can help you solve. I hear over and over again, students saying, I can't go to the career center yet. I don't know what I want to do. And that's like the whole purpose of the Career Center is actually help you figure out what you want to do.

20:09.13

Eric Stano

Right. Right. Right.

20:12.66

Christine 

But a lot of students actually think, Oh, they can't be helpful until I actually have an idea or I have a sense. And so they miss out on actually getting expert help and figuring out some of those pieces. Right. And so I think a big piece of this is. is awareness. That's one component. I think a second component is this whole topic of relevance that you and I have already brought up a few times.

20:38.77

Eric Stano

All right.

20:39.28

Christine 

How does a career center position itself to remain relevant during this time and this day and age when information is so readily accessible to students at their fingertips, on their phones, on their laptops? Why would they want to come in and see the Career Center? What is the value proposition? And I've asked this question, honestly, of many of my peers over the past few years. Have you rethought what your value proposition is? Why would they want to come in to see you? And I think what... I hope some of my peers will really think thoroughly about, in my opinion, is connections. A career center could presumably provide a student with a lot of different connections. And these are not just connections like saying, Hey, go to this database and look up students who had interests similar to yours or who are working in industries that you want to go into. But these are like actual warm connections. where I can say, Hey, I know Eric. He does X, Y, and Z. Let me introduce you to him, right? And I think in our profession, in career services, for a long time, people felt strongly about, well, you know, I don't want to give the students the fish. I want to teach them to fish. And so I'm going to teach them the skills of how to network. I'm going to teach them the skills of how to find people and how to reach out. That's fantastic. But in real life, people actually do make warm introductions. In real life, that actually is how it works.

22:10.84

Eric Stano

Right.

22:13.39

Christine 

And so you are actually teaching them by modeling that for them and by being an extension of their network. I know the other rebuttal that you might get from some of my peers is, well, I'm only an office of one or two or three. There's no way we don't have the bandwidth to be able to do all the things we need to do and also build all these relationships. And what I would say if I were in those particular positions is I would rethink what do we really need to do, right? That's the whole point of the question around what is your value proposition?

22:44.22

Eric Stano 
That's right. That's right.

22:46.99

Christine 

If your value proposition really is about these warm connections, maybe you have to rethink how am I spending my time and what really is the most worthwhile use of that? And how do I do that at a scale that is beyond just two, three, or four people? What does that look like? It does require us to think quite differently about what we've been doing and how we want to do it moving forward. I'm not suggesting that is the only value proposition, but I do think it is one of the key value propositions that no technology will ever be able to replace.

23:18.75

Eric Stano

Yeah. And occasionally, so we're saying this, there's nothing wrong with handing somebody a fish sometimes if they're hungry and you know they need it. But I take your point. On the theme of connections, let's say with our listeners, let's try and connect to the students even further here. Again, we've already talked about you know this new generation, that this current generation's of you know focus is on stability and work-life balance, et cetera.  Drilling down a little further into some of that, how are students feeling today in the current job market? How are they feeling about remote work and hybrid roles? We hear a lot about both,  particularly coming out of the pandemic. And also,  you know how are they feeling about opportunities in areas like AI?

24:10.72

Christine 

Yeah, so students currently overall are feeling quite pessimistic about the job market. I think that's understandable given that it is a tough job market.

24:18.80

Eric Stano

Sure.

24:20.48

Christine 

Things are very competitive. Jobs are down approximately 15% or so from last year, but applications are up 30%. So there are fewer opportunities and more people applying for them. So it is understandable that they might feel that way. When it comes to things like hybrid, remote, and in-person, the majority would prefer some type of hybrid work structure. So 40% of the class of 2025 say that they definitely prioritize those opportunities. Remote is not nearly as popular as in-person is these days. Many students that I've talked to have said, I would much rather go in-person so that I can meet people, I can develop those relationships, I can build a community. I think that notion of community comes back again for them as they think about what the workplace will be able to provide. And it goes to the work-life balance conversation that we were just having, having earlier. And then when you think about the whole notion of generative AI or gen AI and what they sort of feel about that, you do see a larger percentage, about 62% of this year's seniors are somewhat or very concerned about the impact of gen AI on their particular careers. And that's compared to about 44% of seniors just two years ago. And again, I think this is pretty understandable, given that we know more. AI has advanced dramatically in two years and so it's natural for these seniors to be taking a concerted, you know, really looking at what those opportunities look like.

25:49.73

Eric Stano

Certainly.

25:57.18

Christine 

I think notably what's interesting is that computer science majors and humanities majors are actually the two majors that are most likely to be very concerned about Gen AI. And I think that's an interesting one because they're such different majors, right?

26:13.01

Eric Stano

Oh, those two majors are rarely mentioned in the same sentence.

26:19.58

Christine 

Exactly. Exactly. So I think that's, I think that's particularly, particularly interesting. And the reality is, we have seen more job descriptions mention gen AI or gen AI tools by more than 4x over the past two years. And that is a reality that our seniors are, are jumping into.

26:37.34

Eric Stano
And I have to say that your you know comments on hybrid work from home, work from the office, that resonates with me as somebody who comes to the office every day of the week. My subway rides are very different on Mondays, Wednesdays, and Fridays, because it's it's clear some people are availing themselves of a hybrid role. Well, given the feelings that these students are having and their views of these roles, and, you know, the potential impact of AI. What do you think this means for how universities might guide students towards internships and job pathways?

27:25.92

Christine 

I think the big piece is still figuring out how might you embed more work-based learning into the curriculum. So you can do that in a number of different ways.

27:37.14

Eric Stano

Hmm.

27:38.00

Christine 

There are some schools you look at, say, a Johnson and Wales University has actually been doing this for ages. They have always embedded work-based learning into their curriculum. They've had capstones where students are required to do internships in their different departments. And that hands-on learning has just always been part of their educational experience. And I think that's fantastic. You look at other places where maybe it's not universal across the entire school, but you have certain programs that maybe have partnered with employers, and every semester they bring in a live employer project or problem that the students or the class will collectively work on together and present back to an employer at the end of the semester. There are different ways in which you can enable this. And I think it's important for schools to be thinking about that integration or how it could be embedded. And again, they should do it in a way that fits the culture of their of their institution. I also think it is important for schools to really work with students on not only learning the skills that they will need for the workforce, right? We have all of the skills like communication and teamwork and problem solving, and critical thinking, but you also have the harder skills these days, like Gen AI, for example, and how do you help embed that into their experience? But more importantly, how do you make sure that you help the student to learn how to articulate that they have these particular skills? We know that the college experience often does teach students how to do all the things I just listed.

29:10.81

Eric Stano

Right.

29:15.51

Christine 

But when you ask students directly, hey, did you learn this? A lot of them would be like, oh, I don't know. I'm not sure if I did, right? Like they don't necessarily put two and two together all the time right away.

29:27.78

Eric Stano

Right.

29:28.63

Christine 

That's a lot of the work of what career services and career advisors are doing is helping them realize, hey, you know that group project you really didn't like because half the team slacked off and you ended up having to pull their weight.

29:39.13

Eric Stano

Right.

29:40.69

Christine 

Like, do you realize what you learned in that situation? You learned how to work with difficult people. You learned how to communicate. You learned how to still present a cohesive vision because at the end of the day, it was a group grade, right? There are all these lessons that you learned that are actually extremely applicable to the workplace, but we're often not connecting the dots enough for students to realize that in the moment.

30:04.30

Eric Stano

Right, early on learning that life sometimes isn't fair. And so now we've talked about student attitudes a good deal here, but I'm curious, how are the attitudes starting to influence how students themselves approach learning and career planning, and job searching? You've talked about where they consume information and how we have to populate those spaces in order to be there for them. But how are students' postures relative to this career journey? What are they doing? How are they approaching it, given all the things they're looking for, a again, stability, work-life balance, and all the things that they're you know trying to figure out, hybrid office connections or things that they're may be a little bit nervous about AI and what is that going to mean for for me and will that replace the job I'm seeking? How is this approach? How is this all sort of coming together and shaping the way students approach, again, learning, career planning, and job searching?

31:12.77

Christine 

I think there are two different things that I would probably call attention to. One is that this generation, this class of 2025, as well as the previous class of 2024 and even 2023, they were much more ready, if you will, to know that they will have to do truly lifelong learning.

31:30.34

Eric Stano

Mm-hmm.

31:34.36

Christine 

So in our previous surveys, we have seen that students recognize that within a year, within two years, they will probably need to upskill. They will probably need to learn something new to keep them relevant in their jobs. And I think that is fundamentally different from previous generations, where if you had asked a millennial or a Gen X how they're going to continue to evolve or grow as a professional, they would have probably said something like a master's degree or an MBA or maybe a PhD, right?

32:05.19

Eric Stano

Sure.

32:06.40

Christine 

But they're thinking about longer form studies. They're thinking about education in a more formalized way. Whereas this generation is saying, oh, I might not I might not get a certification, or I might just get a certificate, or maybe I'll just have the skill and I'll be able to just say that I have that skill, not necessarily a master's degree coming out of it And I'm okay with that. I just know that I have to keep learning in order to stay relevant. And I think that is really different with this generation and moving forward. So that's that's one piece of it. The second piece I would say has really shifted and changed in their approach to job searching is their willingness to pivot and to consider other opportunities. So more than 40% of students in this generation in these classes have said, I am willing to look at other industries or other roles that I wasn't thinking about when I went into my senior year. And I think that adaptability and that agility is actually another skill that will serve them very, very well over the course of their career because things are changing so rapidly. Many professionals, ourselves included, will need to keep reinventing ourselves.

33:20.40

Eric Stano

right

33:20.54

Christine 

And these students are already getting a crash course on how to do that.

33:25.02

Eric Stano

And interesting that that can coexist with a goal of stability, having that agility and that mindset to be nimble. So just an interesting, you would think that they're in opposition to one another, but they're really not. One actually fuels the opportunity to obtain the other. Yeah. let's  Let's shift gears a little bit, if I could. We've we've touched we've touched on AI a couple of times, and obviously, this is just going to continue to you know consume a lot of our lives and our day-to-day. Are there other there promising examples, again, on AI that you've seen of universities really integrating AI literacy or usage into their programs? I go to conferences and I have seen over the last couple of years, the yeah, I've heard the hue and cry from universities really struggling to enact rules or guardrails around AI. But on the positive front, you know have you have you seen good examples of them integrating AI literacy and usage into their programs?

34:36.29

Christine 

Oh, certainly. I'll give you two examples. I mean, one would be Arizona State University, right? No surprise to anybody.

34:42.24

Eric Stano

Always.

34:43.58

Christine 

ASU is often on the cutting edge of new technology. They're happy to be guinea pigs. They're happy to pilot. They're happy to use new technology and roll it out across their institutions. So they continue to be great partners. And thinking about Gen AI and thinking about programs related to AI, they already offer both a master's and an undergraduate degree in AI as well. So I think a lot of the work that ASU is doing is really fantastic. But I'll give you another school that is actually completely opposite and different than ASU, which would be Emory University. So much smaller private institution.

35:18.02

Eric Stano

Yup

35:18.10

Christine 

in the South, and they actually believe so strongly in where AI is going that they have embedded, they've actually hired experts in each of the different degree programs that also specialize in AI, so that they can be advisors to the faculty and to the students around within this discipline. This is how you can embed AI. This is how you can use AI to do your research, to do your analysis, to do your training. And I think that's really powerful. They do have a center of folks that are also focused on the whole topic of AI and what that looks like. But I think that's a really great example of how you can be thinking in a really forward way around what this could look like for an institution and for students.

36:05.04

Eric Stano

Right. Yeah. And I think you may have just answered the question I was just going to ask by talking about Emory and its example. But maybe you can expand on it further. I was going to ask, you know, how can leadership take a more balanced approach to fostering innovation while also maintaining where I hear the hue and cry about ethical and academic standards?

you want Do you want to expand on maybe the Emory example or or provide another one where you think that they're they're getting it right with that balanced approach?

36:39.63

Christine 

Sure. I think Emory is a great example. I'll expand on that.

36:42.01

Eric Stano

Yeah, sure.

36:42.89

Christine 

I think by them hiring folks that actually also have expertise in the specific discipline or degree areas, they're doing a couple of things. One, they are honoring the expertise of that academic domain. They're not saying that AI alone knows it better, or can do it better, or can replace them. But they're rather saying, how do we actually take the knowledge of these experts and continue to actually push the boundaries of what AI can do and how it can be used and how it can actually be a creative partner in the work that we do together? And I think that does a few things for students and for faculty. I think for faculty, for any faculty that were maybe skeptical or unsure about the use of this, they essentially have an actual colleague, someone that has similar credentials to them, someone who also has the same level of expertise or knowledge, someone that is at their level. And so it feels safer to be able to talk to a peer or a colleague in that way versus trying to have a faculty member simply interface with somebody that, say, comes purely from a tech background, for example. For students, I think it really illustrates and supports how important it is to still learn this material and to still be able to absorb and understand it. And that AI isn't replacing it, but rather augmenting it. And that is also a really powerful example.

38:12.64

Eric Stano

Right

38:14.72

Christine 

So I think Emory has done a really wonderful job of taking this balanced approach and thinking about how to embed, how to integrate AI into their day to day to day.

38:25.47

Eric Stano

Nice. Well, thank you. Thank you for that. And let's, let's begin to wrap up here with our perhaps, odiously titled lightning round section of this conversation. I'll just ask you a few questions and, let's just, just move through it. You give me the quickest answer top of mind. And, we'll just try and give some, some little nuggets of wisdom in our wake from this. So what's the one piece of advice you'd give higher education leaders trying to bridge the gap between education and industry?

38:59.27

Christine 

Prioritize career education. If you actually prioritize it, you'll actually do it.

39:03.76
Eric Stano

Nice. What's one common myth or misconception about today's student job search?

39:09.41

Christine 

That if you apply to hundreds of jobs, you'll actually get one of them.

39:13.35

Eric Stano

Nice, you're good at this. What's your biggest hope or boldest prediction for the future of higher education over the next five years?

39:22.17

Christine 

Oh, well, I'll go with hope. My biggest hope is that career education really will be prioritized, and you will start to see greater success from students come from that prioritization.

39:36.19

Eric Stano

Always leave on a hopeful note. I like it.  And now that we're past the lightning round, let us actually just take a more sober and thoughtful approach to these last few moments.

Any real closing remarks or key takeaways that you know listeners who might have tuned in and out of this conversation that you want to make sure they take with them? You know, any parting advice you'd give?

40:06.76

Christine 

I mean, I think if we take a step back and really zoom out on this conversation that we're having, none of what we're talking about is rocket science. We're talking about really practical things here that must require coordination.

40:20.49

Eric Stano

Right

40:23.64

Christine 

In large part, it just takes real collaboration, but it takes collaboration across entities that are not all working in the same place. And I think that's the part that makes it incredibly hard. It's hard enough for my peers that are working in higher education to sometimes navigate their own colleges or universities. You then throw in how do you partner with a tech provider like Handshake?

40:42.53

Eric Stano

Right

40:47.94

Christine 

How do you partner with your local chambers of commerce? How do you bring in workforce boards? How do you use the data across all of those different entities to give you a sense of what's needed in your local community or region, and how do you want to change curriculum based on that or not, right? And all of a sudden it feels overwhelming. It feels complex.

But I think if we actually step back and just remind ourselves at the end of the day, we're trying to help students get jobs. Period. That's the goal. That's it. That's all we're trying to do. And let's just make this as simple as possible. How do we help get as many students as many jobs as we can? I think we could let go what has to be this big, fancy program. It has to do X, Y, and Z, like just literally help connect them to that opportunity. What's the fastest way to do that? Or what's the easiest way to do that? Or what's the way that we can actually scale? Or do we need three different ways to do that? And that's what we should build and call it a day. But I think that's what we can't forget is at the end of the day, that's really what's most important. And I think sometimes what gets lost in this conversation is and, actually, I'll do a full circle back to what I said at the very beginning of this podcast.

42:07.67

Eric Stano

Sure.

42:07.67

Christine 

I think, unfortunately, because the value of higher education is being called into question, unfortunately, I think a lot of my peers are often really focused on how do I articulate my value of career services or career education within the context of my institution, right? And they end up having to spend time and energy on that because they're trying to position, they're trying to frame, they're trying to advocate, they're trying to get resources instead of spending all of their time on how do I get these students jobs? They're having to think about those other pieces.

42:43.26

Eric Stano

Well,

42:45.10

Christine 

So structurally, institutionally, if we can help them get the resources they need, get a seat at the table, they can focus on the important data that's actually needed and the important interventions that are actually needed to help get those students connected and get those jobs.

43:03.08

Eric Stano

Well, I can't think of a better way to conclude, although I will add that I appreciate the quiet callback to recommending that everybody recall the lessons that they learned from their group projects in college when you advised that they folks collaborate and work with others. And, you know, we'd referenced that earlier, and I think that's good advice that you did learn some career skills when you were in college. So thank you for that. Christine, it's been an absolute pleasure. And do you want to let listeners know how they can keep up with you, keep up with the work you're doing, stay in touch with the bits of advice and insights that you gain? Are there good ways for people to keep track of your work? 

43:55.10

Christine 

Sure, absolutely. They can find me on LinkedIn. C. Cruz Vergara, my first initial and my last name, is my handle. They can find me on LinkedIn. They can find me on Handshake. Happy to connect.

44:05.61

Eric Stano

Well, once again,  thank you Christine. I really appreciate your time today. Thanks for those of you who have been listening. Again, this is Eric Stano with Magic EdTech, and this has been Tech in EdTech.