00:02.59

Zahra Massicotte

Hi everyone, and welcome to Tech in EdTech, the show where we explore how technology can actually power teaching and learning at scale. I'm your host, Zahra Massicotte. Today, we're tackling student engagement as a strategy, not just a dashboard number, and how AI, product choices, and implementation can expand teaching capacity. Joining me today is Brian Shaw, CEO of Discovery Education, a company at the intersection of classrooms, content, and technology. They recently released an Education Insights report titled “Fueling Learning Through Engagement, Capturing Voices from Across K-12”. We'll use that to frame the problem and then go beyond the report into what builders and leaders can do next. Brian, welcome to Tech in EdTech.

00:47.62

Brian Shaw

Thanks, Zarah. Appreciate you having me, and I'm looking forward to the conversation.

00:51.28

Zahra Massicotte

Yes, absolutely. So Brian, to start, I always love hearing about folks' journeys. Can you tell us a little bit about how you got into EdTech?

01:00.58

Brian Shaw

Sure, absolutely. I've been in tech for most of my career, really worked at some amazing companies along the way. And, about eight years ago, I heard about the opportunity to discover education. At the time, the business was really just splitting off from its old parent company, the media company, Discovery Communications. And, the company and the opportunity really resonated with me for a lot of reasons, but the biggest one was the mission. It isn't every day that you get a chance to work at a company that makes a real and positive impact in the world. So, learned more and more about the company, joined Discovery Education back in 2018 as the CFO. It was my first time in EdTech, and looking back, it was more rewarding than I had imagined from the outside looking in. I could see the impact firsthand with my kids, and I was really hooked. And since then, it's been an amazing journey. So, I've been at Discovery Education now for a little over seven years since 2018. First, I was the CFO. Then I was the COO for a couple of years. And the past year and a half or so, I've had the honor of being our CEO.

02:00.26

Zahra Massicotte

That's awesome. Really great to hear. Thanks for that. And so you've been leading Discovery Ed through a pretty transformative time in K-12. What's been top of mind for you as CEO this year?

02:12.93

Brian Shaw

Yeah, that's a great question. It has been an incredibly transformative year, and I probably don't need to remind your audience in particular about all of the challenges facing teachers and parents and students, and, yes, edtech companies for sure. But top of mind for me, and really for the rest of the team at Discover Education, has been continuing to focus on our mission, and that mission is really pretty simple. It's to deliver resources to schools, engaging effective, easy-to-use digital resources that can help really accelerate growth. It also is to scale teacher impact and at the same time motivate learning every day. And I'm proud to lead a team that wakes up each day ready to tackle that mission and, even with all of the change and all of the transformation in 2025, that mission remains our north star

03:00.04

Zahra Massicotte

Absolutely. Love hearing that. That's really great. And so you touched on a lot of things we're going to be talking about today. So engagement, motivation, scaling impact. And so, Discovery Education sits on this unique intersection of classrooms, content, and technology. So talk to me about engagement. Why has that become such a strategic priority?

03:23.21

Brian Shaw

I think Derek Newton, in a recent article in Forbes about our new Education Insights Report, really framed it perfectly. He described engagement as the secret sauce for scholastic success. And I think the research bears that out. Over 90% of the teachers, principals, and superintendents in our Insights Report agree that student engagement is a critical metric for understanding overall achievement. And for almost 25 years now, engagement has been the core of what Discovery Education is from an identity perspective, how we view our products. And we firmly believe that education is the first, I should say, engagement is the first step in every learning journey. So I'd actually argue that engagement has always been top of mind and always been a strategic focus for a company like Discovery Education. But this year, we decided it was the perfect time to take a deep dive into this Education Insights report into what engagement really means.

04:20.01

Zahra Massicotte

Yeah, absolutely. And, you know, Discovery Education is a, you know, known leader in this space. And so it's really great to hear that these priorities have been consistent and that you're taking it a step further with this report, which we're definitely going to get into a bit further. Engagement often leads us to think about student motivation. And there's a line that I really love in the report that says, “Motivation is less about whether students have it and more about whether schools work to tap into it.” If that's true, what signals do you think schools should actually be paying attention to?

04:54.37

Brian Shaw

I think that's a great insight. And look, schools should really look at the three different dimensions of engagement. I mean, at first, it starts with probably the most obvious, the behavioral engagement. Are students participating? Are they behaving? Are they focused? But then there's also emotional engagement. Are the students really interested? Are they being collaborative? Do they have a sense of belonging in the classroom? And sometimes that can be a little bit harder to detect. And then the third layer is cognitive engagement. And this is more long-term motivation. It's the idea that students think about their future. Are they thinking about how they think? Those sorts of deeper questions. And yeah, to me, I believe these dimensions of engagement are why schools should really be looking at motivation in a new and different way. And if you have students that are putting these traits across multiple different dimensions, chances are they're engaged. But there's no one-size-fits-all here. And I think that's what's really important.

05:45.63

Zahra Massicotte

Yeah, absolutely. It made me think of my three-year-old, who's in preschool, and she's so excited to learn right now. And everything is new and exciting and kind of continually tapping into that emotional connection. You know, it gets harder as students get older, but that's super important, how that changes as students get older, and really continuing to give students those meaningful experiences that matter and that they can connect to.

06:14.16

Brian Shaw

Yes, absolutely. And I will say my two kids both have different ways that they express engagement in school, and it's very different.

06:21.05

Zahra Massicotte

Mm-hmm.

06:21.53

Brian Shaw

One is the one always raising their hand and wanting to be called on, but the other is focused and, you know, to them, it's the emotional layer that I think they're showing in their own different way, different from necessarily the kind of traditional visible signs of engagement.

06:39.85

Zahra Massicotte

Yeah, and I really liked how the report talked a lot about those visual versus non-visual signs. Like some students, you know, maybe looking out a window or doodling, but they still could be engaged, and that's just their way of just like focusing themselves and listening, where, you know, some students might take that in a different way. So, I really liked how the report dove deeper into that. So, if you were just to talk a little bit about, you know, you talked about your two different kids and kind of that personalization touch that would be helpful for a lot of students. And when you're deciding more for personalization and a relevant learning experience, what would you say is in right now and what's definitely out?

07:19.91

Brian Shaw

Yeah, there are a couple of things that I'd say are in. At Discovery Education, we're always designing our resources to create more personalized learning experiences. 

07:27.85

Zahra Massicotte

hmm.

07:27.97

Brian Shaw

In one sense, that connect the classroom learning to the real world and students' lives beyond graduation, I think that's important for kids to be able to see how the learning can be applied to something that exists outside the walls of the classroom. But also, at the same time, we are using technology and data to be able to provide personalized and adaptive learning experiences for the students that really meet them where they are and help fine-tune the areas where a teacher can really reinforce a principle that maybe isn't mastered yet, and maybe spend a little less time on one that is.

07:56.41

Zahra Massicotte

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

07:57.88

Brian Shaw

And, you know, for me, I think those two things are very, very important. It's really that connection to the outside world, but also using technology in a very purposeful way. And that's actually probably a good segue to what's out. I would say technology for technology's sake is my take on what's really out. To me, the use of technology in the classroom should be purposeful. And what I mean by purposeful is this. I believe in Discovery Education as a company, we believe that edtech, when deployed the right way, should be saving teachers time and effort. It should be helping to scale what we already know is best practice. It should ignite curiosity and engage students. It should also drive the development of skills and knowledge that will support success beyond graduation. And I truly believe that edtech that can do one or more of these things can really achieve some remarkable things when implemented the right way. But, on the flip side, if EdTech is not doing that to transform a classroom, I'd argue that there may not be the value that one might think in a particular tool that can't meet one or more of those dimensions.

09:05.58

Zahra Massicotte

Super important points. Thank you for pointing that out. I really like that. Let's switch into really deep diving into this report. I found the data to be super interesting. It's 50 pages, but some really great charts and graphs, and pulls out information from both students' perspective, teachers, and superintendents. So you kind of spoke to this a little bit, but what really prompted Discovery to put this report together in this formal way?

09:47.00

Brian Shaw

Yeah, and this is actually the second year now that Discovery Education has conducted an in-depth nationwide research study that explores a timely and relevant topic in K-12. First of all, you can download a copy for free at www.discoveryeducation.com.

09:59.26

Zahra Massicotte

Mm-hmm.

10:00.86

Brian Shaw

I had to do a quick plug. But this year, we chose engagement because, as I mentioned earlier, it's really core to who we are as a company. And we think by sharing the insights, the opinions, and perspectives of those closest to the classroom, and in this case, almost 1,400 superintendents, teachers, parents, and students from across the United States, we can spark new conversations about student engagement. We can really help stakeholders in creating actionable steps to lead to more supportive learning environments and promoting dynamic instruction. And ultimately, the goal in everything we should do is to help every student reach their fullest potential. And we think that this report helps shine a spotlight on some very necessary conversations that we certainly hope will achieve each of those things.

10:47.98

Zahra Massicotte

Yeah, and I like how you mentioned making it a conversation and a collaborative approach to really help define and get supporting student learning. So, where do you see the biggest gap right now? Is it in defining engagement, measuring it, or actually acting on it?

11:06.16

Brian Shaw

Yeah, it's interesting. You know, educators across the country are working hard to engage their students in learning each day. But I do see a couple of gaps that this report really highlighted. And the first one is around defining engagement. 72% of teachers, per the report, ranked asking thoughtful questions as the strongest indicator of student engagement. But interestingly, most superintendents identified performing well on assessments as the top engagement indicator. So, it's actually interesting to note that, at the same time, teachers ranked standardized assessments as among the lowest indicators of engagement. So, I think there is one challenge there in terms of the language and the metrics that administrators and teachers, and then certainly parents and students, are using in kind of thinking about engagement in this context. And so that creates the other challenge, which is around measuring engagement. Data shows that school leaders and teachers disagree on whether their schools have systems for measuring engagement. Overwhelming majorities of superintendents and principals said their districts have an intentional approach to measuring engagement, but far fewer teachers who were surveyed agreed with that statement. So, taken together, I think these data points paint a picture of perhaps confusion or a little bit of disconnect, as if schools are actually measuring engagement. And if so, what is it exactly that they're measuring, and is it the right thing?

12:22.63

Zahra Massicotte

Right. And making sure what superintendents think is measuring it is the same as what teachers think they're measuring or reporting on, and things like that. So, that's very insightful information. Are there any particular findings that really surprised you? And, you know, you spoke on this a little bit, but I definitely saw some striking difference, not only between like teacher and like superintendent perspective, but also the perception of teachers and what students actually think.

12:50.27

Brian Shaw

Yeah, I think you actually framed that perfectly right at the end. I think the thing that surprised me most in this entire report was the finding that four out of five students believe that school is easy, while only about half of the teachers agree. And so I think it deserves a little bit more investigation and conversation. Because to me, this data suggests that students may find the material itself may be manageable, but they still feel overwhelmed by factors such as workload volume, pacing, or other external pressures. And engagement researchers call this dynamic of that simultaneous workload kind of strain and stress, and boredom, as passenger mode. And passenger mode is really when students show up, they follow instructions, they complete homework, they go through the motions, but they do it passively without taking initiative or feeling personally or cognitively connected to their learning. And look, over time, that's what leaves students feeling both overwhelmed and bored and also unsure of the purpose behind what they're being asked to do. And again, going back to Discovery Education's focus on always connecting to the real-world application and always trying to think about how to be able to take a lesson taught that day and extend it outside of the classroom. And, you know, lacking that kind of feeling of purpose and connection, I think, is important. And you layer this finding over recent NAEP scores, just frankly saying students are falling further behind academically. And we need to get to the bottom of what's really causing that contradiction in order to come up with a plan and how we can address it and solve it.

14:23.06

Zahra Massicotte

Yeah, absolutely. And one made me think of one thing that stood out to me, and as far as students feeling overwhelmed or stressed. And one example that a student gave was the difference of they got an assignment for just writing one paragraph and that made them feel like more confined and restricted, versus if the teacher had asked them to write a whole story where they got to be creative and like it was a little bit more open-ended. That wasn't as overwhelming versus writing a paragraph. So, just an example, I thought I would point out that I found really interesting.

14:56.82

Brian Shaw

Yeah, that's a great one.

14:59.52

Zahra Massicotte

So what do you hope district leaders and ed tech providers actually do with these insights in the coming year?

15:06.41

Brian Shaw

So it's my hope that this research sparks dialogue among education stakeholders. As I mentioned earlier, you know engagement is really a special sauce of learning. And you know, based on the research in schools, parents, teachers, students, everyone understands the importance of engagement. So my hope is that you know these insights, followed by some interesting observations on the gaps and the misalignments, some of the things we've already talked about, can really push everyone in the ecosystem, including edtech providers, to deliver compelling solutions, and for district leaders to recognize the importance of adopting them.

15:45.41

Zahra Massicotte

Yeah, appreciate that. Thank you. So I want to slightly switch gears a little bit and talk about AI, because no edtech conversations would be complete without AI. And the report does touch on some of those potential roles that AI can play in engagement. But how is Discovery Education thinking about and approaching AI? 

16:06.01

Brian Shaw

Yes, and you're right, it's 2025, so I definitely expected the AI question to come up here and somewhere along the way. Discovery Education believes AI and education should heighten educators' impact by empowering them to focus on what they do best: teaching, engaging, and inspiring students. So when we think about AI in our portfolio, our AI tools incorporate human involvement at every stage, directing output, reviewing AI-enhanced materials to ensure exceptional quality, accuracy, and alignment to educational standards. And so this is kind of a human-centered approach that it guarantees that educators can confidently rely on our AI-powered resources to enhance their lesson plans and curriculum. Because ultimately, we want AI to support the teacher, to save them time, to help them spend more time with their students. And ultimately, that's what, at the end of the day, what we're trying to do at Discovery Education is all about. It is empowering the teacher to leverage technology, to leverage data, to leverage AI and other technologies in a way that makes them more successful in the classroom.

17:13.75

Zahra Massicotte

Yeah, and I like how you kind of wrapped that up as far as human involvement and really what the goals are with empowering the teacher and saving them time, and how important that is, and how thoughtful we are with the use of AI. And so, what does meaningful AI-driven innovation look like? So, AI can surface certain patterns, but teachers are often skeptical and for good reason. But where is it adding value? Or where must teachers remain the decision makers?

17:43.83

Brian Shaw

Yeah, and I do think what you just said, that AI should not take the decision-making away from the teacher. That's a really important thing, and it very much aligns with what we're doing at Discovery Education. So when we think about and speak about AI-driven innovation at Discovery Education, we're combining high-quality content with time-saving AI tools. Our solutions are really saving teachers' time again, so they can spend more meaningful moments with students, and they can also get the data and information from AI and from other adaptive technologies to really know at a granular level where each of their students are. And I think those are important, kind of, leverage points in terms of using technology in a new and different way to be able to actually teach with the insight of knowing that, you know, this corner of the class is struggling with this particular set of standards while on the other side of the classroom, folks are breezing through those standards and they're running into a different stumbling block. And being able to see that and interact with data in a way that allows the teacher to then make the decisions on how they're going to follow up or assign lessons, whether it's through technology or not, I think that's really, really important because the power of the data and the power of the tools is quite meaningful. But, going back to saving teachers' time, I mean, maybe a good example here is our AI teacher tool assessment generator. So, this is a generative AI tool that helps educators efficiently create quizzes and assessments tailored to their classroom's needs. And, in this particular case, I mean, we all know that creating a quiz or grading a quiz, like this, is nights and weekends of a teacher's time, unfortunately.

19:19.40

Zahra Massicotte

Yeah

19:20.66

Brian Shaw

And, with this tool, you have technology that's been vetted and trained on a highly curated set of academically rigorous content and curriculum to be able to create very, very high-quality quizzes and assessments tailored by reading level, tailored by language, tailored by the standards being taught, all with the click of a couple of buttons. And so I think that type of use of AI really transforms how a teacher can spend their day in the classroom, but also their week, and frankly, the entire school year. So when we think about our tools, we really want them to either save teachers time or engage students in a way that drives development of skills and knowledge that, again, can be personalized based on what the technology is learning about the student in real time. So when we think, kind of overall, about AI-driven innovation, it's really a commitment to continuously enhancing the classroom experience through very thoughtfully implemented educator-centric innovations. And that ultimately is what allows the teacher then to scale instructional excellence across their classroom and across their school.

20:31.24

Zahra Massicotte

Yeah, hugely, hugely powerful. Thank you for that. So the report talks about several challenges when it comes to effectively measuring engagement. But if you could get edtech companies to focus on just one thing next quarter to really move the needle on engagement measurement, what would that be?

20:53.81

Brian Shaw

Yeah. So, I think, you know, to really advance in engagement measurement, think we first need to work with schools to better define and norm what engagement looks like in the classroom. And again, I've said it multiple times, but dialogue is the first step towards an answer here. When we think about how we can help partner with our schools in terms of defining what engagement really is, then helping them to create measurable goals for engagement kind of is a natural follow-on to that. And once we have that alignment with our school partners, ed tech firms can begin to align on instrumentation, reporting, et cetera. But it really does have to start with framing that important conversation to get the alignment. And that's ultimately what we're hoping this report will help accomplish is kind of move the ball forward as it relates to the definition and alignment pieces of that conversation that then from an instrumentation and reporting perspective, I know Discover Education amongst many, many other companies are quite good at being able to track and report once we have alignment on that first piece, but that's so, so important.

21:55.45

Zahra Massicotte

Yeah, absolutely. And then, you know, taking that into the data into measurable and actionable steps. So, let's bring in families for a minute, and it was brief; there was some really good quotes, I thought, from parents and what they thought of their students and engagement levels. And so families often connect to engagement, to things like attendance, doing homework, and being motivated, and just, kind of, seeing their motivation. How can school providers bring parents and caregivers into this conversation in a more meaningful way?

22:27.74

Brian Shaw

Yeah, I think we all know parents and their role in this conversation is critically, critically important. And like, I think to start, and this is something that's kind of a recurring theme in this conversation, I think parents need to be part of the district's conversations that will help define and norm engagement. And I won't presume to tell school systems how best to communicate with their parents. They certainly know that better than I do. But I will say that they absolutely need to have the parent perspective on what engagement means, and through a very thoughtful communication strategy, really enroll parents in how to support and have visibility from home. Because ultimately, this is a complicated learning in the classroom, how it's brought home, and the communication cycle around that that really drives the most successful outcome. So you being part of that conversation and practically including parents in that conversation, I think, is absolutely critical.

23:23.76

Zahra Massicotte

A full community that's needed.

23:26.30

Brian Shaw

Yes, absolutely.

23:26.89

Zahra Massicotte

So, I want to dive a little bit more into something you mentioned about just scaling and scaling, what's worked. So kind of taking it to the next level. And so for a lot of our listeners, scaling can become a great challenge, you know. There's a great idea, but then, maybe a pilot goes well, but then, how do you take it to the next level? Where obviously, deal with your capacity. You have a lot of experience with this. Once a product proves engaging in a pilot, what are some good implementation practices that would help scale most effectively across diverse districts?

24:04.84

Brian Shaw

Yeah, it's a great question, one that we're always trying to crack the secret code on how to perfect. But I think first and foremost, successfully scaling implementations rests on communication. Districts need to identify educators who saw success during the pilot and use those educators as ambassadors to teach other teachers in other schools. This peer-to-peer discussion really highlights the benefits of a successful implementation for both teachers and students. And that's, you know, as a practice, I've seen that work over and over again, so I would highly, highly recommend it. Of course, tech providers need to be part of the communication ecosystem to enable this in the best way possible. But, kind of really finding those ambassadors and having them evangelize across a school or a district, I think, is really, really important. You know, a school district should also have access to data on the status of their implementations at all times.

24:55.11

Zahra Massicotte

Mm-hmm.

24:55.13

Brian Shaw

And so, you know, when I think about how do you supplement that ambassador, that peer-to-peer support, I'd be sure to install kind of progress monitoring for wider implementation. So, really having access to that data, I think, is really important. And that data being used to adjust the implementation efforts as needed is just as important. So, you have to have the evangelists and the ambassadors, you have to have the right instrumentation. And then you also have to monitor that data, and really, you kind of adjust as needed based on what is or isn't working. So it is a multiple-dimensional exercise to go from a really successful pilot to a really successful, you know, district-wide implementation, especially, you know, a large-scale district. So many, many pieces of that puzzle, all of which are more complicated than I just made it sound in the last minute or two in my response. But I do think starting with those fundamentals is really, really important.

25:47.62

Zahra Massicotte

Yeah. And ultimately being able to go back, look, you know, tweak, be flexible, kind of work with your partner through those different challenges and data points. So if vendors say they drive engagement, what's one non-negotiable commitment they should be willing to put in writing for districts?

26:10.29

Brian Shaw

Yeah, I think the one thing would be that they are also incorporating learning design research into their products and programs.

26:15.55

Zahra Massicotte

Mm-hmm.

26:17.00

Brian Shaw

EdTech has this amazing power to engage in a way that, you know, some traditional methods of instruction cannot on their own, but it has to be founded in the right principles and the right research and the right kind of instructional design. And, if a product is not research-backed, you know, to me, that's a really big red flag. It might be interesting. It might be engaging, but it is, perhaps, not as instructionally relevant or going to drive the right outcomes that we're all looking for. So that’s, you know, that's, kind of, when I think about Discovery Education, that's one of the things that we are always focused on is how can we be both engaging, but also amazingly rigorous in terms of just the research behind how we're building our products in known-to-be-successful instructional design. And not everyone does that. I mean, it's hard because you have to find the right balance, you know, kind of somewhere in the middle, in order to achieve that in the best way. But I do think any vendor that says they want to drive engagement should be able to also back up how they're going to do it in that responsible, kind, well-researched way.

27:32.84

Zahra Massicotte

Yeah, and it brings me back to what you said in the beginning, as far as like tech for tech's sake is definitely out right now. Just creating a game just because it's engaging or you know using AI because it's there, it's got to have that meaning and thought process behind it.

27:50.10

Brian Shaw

Yeah, and maybe, you know, it's a quick tangent. I think a great example, ah… so one of our products is called Dreambox Math, and it is gamified learning, you know, K through 8 is a math supplement. And, it's adaptive. It's collecting all sorts of data points and learning about the student, and taking them on their own kind of personalized learning journey. But it is backed by research in its design, but also in its efficacy. You know, tier one ESSER strong ratings, countless research studies correlating the use of DreamBox to the performance and growth of the student. And you can have both. It's really hard to do both, but you can absolutely have both. And I think districts are right to expect both as they think about, kind of, what tools and technologies are bringing to the classroom.

28:38.96

Zahra Massicotte

Yeah, absolutely. So very true. Okay, Brian, we've made it now to the lightning round. Are you ready?

28:47.17

Brian Shaw

All right, let's do it.

28:49.66

Zahra Massicotte

All right, three short questions. So whatever first comes to mind, just go for it. One signal you'd never use as a proxy for engagement.

29:03.38

Brian Shaw

I'd say student compliance. So, kids raising their hands does not necessarily show engagement. We talked about that earlier. And I think about my daughter every day.

29:09.63

Zahra Massicotte

Mm-hmm.

29:10.15

Brian Shaw

She's a little bit on the shy side. She is very engaged. She loves learning. She's not going to be the first person to raise her hand.

29:18.11

Zahra Massicotte

One AI use for engagement you'd greenlight this year.

29:24.65

Brian Shaw

That's an interesting one. I'd say progress monitoring support for all students is probably the, you know, interesting use case that I'd greenlight this year.

29:36.28

Zahra Massicotte

Great. And one change you'd wish every vendor made to their engagement dashboard.

29:41.74

Brian Shaw

And this, again, I think, you know, going back to how we define and measure engagement. Daily student logins should not, on their own, count as an engagement metric. It needs to be far more robust and interconnected to the actual underlying principles of engagement. So, I would definitely change that as the headliner, which so many providers use.

30:03.80

Zahra Massicotte

Great. Thank you. Great job.

30:06.78

Brian Shaw

Thanks

30:09.33

Zahra Massicotte

Okay, to wrap things up a little bit, if you could leave us with one call to action, what's the single most valuable step education leaders can take to build for real engagement?

30:20.77

Brian Shaw

Yeah, I would suggest that school leaders look at the data in this year's Education Insights Report. Again, it's available on our website for free. And start a conversation in your school about some of the contradictions this report uncovered. Is your school one of those schools where the superintendent thinks they're measuring engagement, but the teachers don't? Or is it your school one of the schools where there's a misalignment between how engagement is being defined? Looking at that report, asking those questions, that really kind of catalyzes the beginnings of a conversation that looks at the gaps that we've identified in this report. And, you know, in my time in edtech, I've come to believe that educators are among the most resourceful, resilient, and driven people on the planet. And I think once they identify the impediments to student engagement, they won't stop until the problem is solved, but it has to start with a conversation. And really, the call to action here is this report; read it, use it as a catalyst to start that conversation. Hopefully, we go down that path to really better define and then solve the engagement challenges that we've highlighted.

31:22.65

Zahra Massicotte

Yeah, absolutely. And of course, there's always going to be challenges, always limited time and resources. But if we can start with that conversation and make sure everyone's on the same page, at least with our defining engagement, how we're all viewing it, I think it's a really great first step. So thank you so much for those insights, Brian. Really appreciate it.

31:41.32

Brian Shaw

Yeah, absolutely.

31:43.90

Zahra Massicotte

So that's a wrap for today's episode of Tech in EdTech. Huge thanks to Brian Shaw for a candid conversation about making engagement meaningful. We'll drop links in the show notes, including Discovery Education's Education Insights Report. And if this was useful, please subscribe, leave a rating, and share with a colleague. I'm Zahra, and this is Tech and EdTech. See you next time.