00:01.72

Eric Stano

Welcome. This is Tech in EdTech. I'm Eric Stano. I'm joined today by Sylvie Milverton, the co-founder and CEO of Lynx Educate. Sylvie, welcome.

00:12.89

Sylvie Milverton

Hi, Eric, thanks for having me.

00:15.38

Eric Stano

Well, I thought we'd just get started by you telling us a little bit about yourself and the work you do at Lynx Educate. And as you describe the company, tell us a little bit about what it does and what kind of problems you focus on.

00:29.18

Sylvie Milverton

Yeah, so Lynx Educate it's a social impact platform, and we help companies invest in education for their communities to align CSR goals with business objectives. So, for example, we work with big gig companies who want to offer education, like language courses, digital skill courses to gig workers who aren't employees, but as a way to invest in those communities that are important to the success of their business and, to improve reputation and also as risk management. So we really help companies use the magic power of education to unlock new customers, social impact, marketing, reputation, all those big challenges that all companies have.

01:16.89

Eric Stano

Yeah, and actually, could you say a little bit more about those challenges? Again, when you were founding the company, what problems out there did you see that you wanted to solve relative to gig workers and upskilling of current employees? What were you tackling?

01:34.04
Sylvie Milverton
So my big idea at the start, which of course what you end up doing, isn't always your exact first idea, but it was just that education is a powerful tool that we all can agree on the importance of education, and that offering education, especially to specific vulnerable communities, is a way that companies can have like a huge impact. And so my original idea was to try to use education to reduce frontline worker turnover. We know that if you offer education to people who haven't gotten advanced degrees, who haven't gone to college, that's a way to really get them to stay much longer in a job. And so by offering them education, like beyond the day-to-day skills that they need for their job, it's a way that you can solve this huge operational challenge of massive frontline employee turnover. We're based in Europe, where those problems just are different, not the same as how you see them in the US. And so what we realized is that the equivalent problem of that in Europe is really like engaging gig workers, getting new customers. Companies want to show that they're a good corporate citizen. Education is an amazing way to do this. And then while you're doing that, well, let's solve a big problem like reputation, risk management, stakeholder engagement, customer outreach. These are all like amazing things that you can do by offering sponsoring free education, short, long, different kind of programs. Yeah. So that's what we're doing.

03:12.28
Eric Stano
And I have a quote here that my team supplied me with prior to us chatting. And it was, it's the quote of completion and clicks. And I think this is attributed to you, although you can disabuse me of that. But it's suggested here that there's a moment you were convinced that completion and clicks were masking the real story and that we need a different scorecard for learning in this context. One, is that quote yours? And two, if so, can you say a little bit about that?

03:43.83
Sylvie Milverton
Yeah, who knows? Maybe I said that. I probably say a lot of things. But I mean, I think it's like two sides. I mean, on the one hand, when you measure impact of learning, I think there is something to the fact you do want to see, like, how many people signed up, how many have completed, how many have enrolled. And I think that those are, I mean, that's where you have to start. And actually, a lot of companies that we work with, they like to be able to say, we offered free education to 100,000 people, or that this is a wide scope. And I think one way of measuring if it's working, of all the people you offer it to, how many people actually go to the learning. And then how many complete it? But then, of course, I mean, I think most people would agree, that's only part of it. And whereas I think even a few years ago, sort of, quote unquote, just offering education, maybe was enough. Now, I really think it has to be like linked to some kind of job or different life or career outcome. And so I think then there's also the other half of like, how are people applying this learning to a job? What are they doing with it? How is it leading to a better life? And actually, with our clients, because a lot of what we're selling is reputation, it's brand. They also need good stories. You want to show like, listen, I sponsored bootcamp for this gig worker, and now he's changed his life, and he's a full-stack developer, and we paid for that. So I think part of it is also these, like, where you change somebody's life. And I think that more than just like, okay, a thousand people clicked on a course, you want to be able to show like the actual impact you made on somebody's life, their economic prosperity, the prosperity of their child. All of that, I think, is the real measure of it.

05:22.26
Eric Stano
Right.

05:36.02
Eric Stano
Yeah, and that actually taps into something. I've been in educational publishing and product development for nearly 35 years, and I've often labored to have a conversation around learning versus grades. Grades in this context being the clickbait. They came to the site or the course, but it's really the learning that's going to benefit somebody long-term and produce those outcomes. So I appreciate that perspective and the stories, of course, that emerged from that and the brand recognition that comes along with it. But I appreciate sort of the substance that you're putting behind the learning you're trying to bring to bear. You mentioned outcomes, and I'd love to understand from you, sort of, whether there's a hierarchy of outcomes and where you think organizations should draw a line between learning success and business impact. Is there somewhere you think that companies should sort of sit on that spectrum?

06:35.51
Sylvie Milverton
I would say, I mean, the way I would think about it is it starts with like, what is the business objective? Like, what is the company trying to do? Nobody, well, I'll say a few companies, invest in these sorts of programs, just out of the goodness of their hearts. Some do, but let's say, you know, we are looking for some kind of business impact. And so I think, start with, what are you trying to achieve? And, I would say the outcome will depend on that. We work with Deliveroo, as I said before, and I think they have two different things. I think one is a wide reach. I think it's important to get the messaging around that you gave a light touch to many thousands and thousands of people, gig workers, and family members have access to thousands of courses, and lots of people do it. Now, for those courses, they probably don't spend that much time. It's probably not a life-changing experience, but they can do a short course on AI. They can learn a tech skill. They can spend a couple of months learning English, learning some basic things, offering it to their family member. And I think that's like a valid outcome. They also want to be able to show that for a smaller group of people, they've had these sort of life-changing experiences because they have a responsibility to this huge… It's a three-sided marketplace between restaurants, customers, and gig workers. And they have a responsibility to that part of their marketplace, their stakeholders, to be able to offer them something of value. Other companies, like Santander, they have a Santander University where they've got tons of free courses, and they're focused on the markets where they have retail branches. And so there, they really want to be able to get brand recognition, engage with customers. So it's like a different kind of goal. And so I think there it's the same, like some additional skilling, being able to sponsor some courses, being able to be known as an important player in a community, and get brand awareness, so that when people think, what bank do I want to use? They think, oh, right, Santander. I know that they're really involved with education. They care about me. They're supporting me on my journey. And so I think to me, companies just need to start strategically. Like, why are you doing this? What are you trying to solve? And then align a program around that challenge.

09:05.30
Eric Stano
Right. And among the diversity of universities and employers, et cetera, that you've worked with, are there sort of three top-line outcomes that you think are advisable for folks to pursue if they're providing this sort of education to their communities, their employees, et cetera?

09:29.06
Sylvie Milverton
Yeah, I think there's something around reach and eligibility. I mean, like, how many people are you able to touch with your solution? I think there should also be some metrics on conversion engagement from the number of people that are on your platform, how many of them are engaged, clicking on, involved with a course. And then I think it is important to look at completions and jobs. How are you turning that education into a job? And what's interesting now? I feel like so recently, you would do a long certificate, you do a degree, you do a bootcamp, and then you'd get a job. And now I feel like the trend is that people are looking for these much shorter skills, and they're really thinking about like AI skills and being much more agile. And the goal isn't necessarily to get a new job, but like how to do your job well or add to your toolkit of expertise. And so it's like, not everybody is looking to like change their life, but more like, oh, the world is changing, and there's all these new things that I don't really know about. And so I want to know, I want to be ready. I want to, not necessarily get a new job, but I just want to be up to the baseline of these AI skills that are needed.

10:53.66
Eric Stano
I want to be fit for purpose for whatever's coming next, and yeah, maybe augment certain aspects of their lives or careers. That makes a lot of sense. Are there leading indicators that you think best predict results for learners who engage in this, like time to proficiency, or manager verified skill use, or project deployment? Are there indicators that you think are best predictors?

11:26.20
Sylvie Milverton
Good question. I mean, it's so, of course, “it depends” is a painful answer.

11:30.56
Eric Stano
Sure.

11:30.88
Sylvie Milverton
We've learned a few things, like

11:32.89
Eric Stano
An authentic answer. It's fine.

11:35.51
Sylvie Milverton
With, so we do work with learning communities where the company wants to sponsor either like a full certificate or something longer, more than just an open access, enter a platform and click around and do some short courses, but where you do like a course where you start and you finish and it takes a month or two months or whatever, so a longer thing. And we have found that just doing a small application, including why you want to do this course, encourages them to do a short advisor call with our advisors to just talk through why they're doing this. Do they have enough time? Do they understand what they're signing up for? And just a quick application, not even to see if you're qualified, but more like if you're in the right headspace. And then also a simple step of just “I confirm my spot” and just that slight, what's the word, friction in the process so that you're not just “okay, click, click, I'm in”, that you've had to sort of think about why you want to do it, talk to someone about why you want to do it, and then confirm that you want to do it. We found that like dramatically, dramatically increases the completion rate. And for companies that sponsor, we're launching lots of clients in January, so we're going a bit bonkers, but in a good way. And one of those clients is sponsoring 50 learners to do some short, but still, you've got to concentrate and spend a month doing it tech courses. And so they want 50 people. Are 50 people all going to fully complete and be engaged? No, but you don't want someone to click out after a minute. And so, going through this process to get people who are committed to this, we found that that makes the whole difference for at least engagement and good outcomes.

13:29.11
Eric Stano
And I appreciate your sort of framing of friction is actually, it's almost analogous to friction equals traction in many respects here. If there's a little bit of skin in the game, they're more likely to really engage seriously with it. So I appreciate that framing of it. Are there popular metrics that you'd retire or demote because they don't really translate into downstream outcomes?

14:00.38
Sylvie Milverton
I think, things around satisfaction and how do you like rate the experience. I mean, of course, we all answer these sort of surveys, but it's so broad, like there's so much in it. So you might like part of it and not like something else. And so sometimes that's hard to get a good view on it. Also, we're a marketplace model where we showcase courses from other providers. We're also starting to build out our own library. And so it also depends how much you can influence. And so the Lynx experience is a full experience of an advisor, of a full catalog of application. We offer a lot of support beyond what the learning provider does. But when we would do a survey, the learner might conflates all these different things. And so it's hard to get to like, was this the right measure? And then, it also goes back, not just about us, but I think companies in general,  you want to measure the things you control. And so we've tried to curate a catalog of programs. We're mostly dealing with underprivileged, underserved communities, people that don't have a lot of education things.

15:21.87
Sylvie Milverton
We look for programs that are accessible, that don't have a lot of prerequisites, so we try to curate the right catalog. But, at the end of the day, we're not the education provider. We didn't design the course. We don't have control. So it's also, yes, it's nice for us to know if people liked it or not, but for at least from the links perspective, a detailed survey about the intricacies of a course when I don't control anything about that, it's not helpful for my organization

15:45.92
Eric Stano
Right.

15:48.57
Sylvie Milverton
of what to measure. So I think in general, one should measure things that can influence your decision making, I think is the most important.

16:02.67
Eric Stano
Well, you may have begun to answer this, and you actually use the word or a variant of the word measure about four times in that last answer. So we're going to shift towards the topic of measuring, specifically measuring skills and proficiency. And, my question is, how should organizations evidence proficiency and what combination?

16:26.30
Sylvie Milverton
Yeah, it's a good question. And I think it depends like the purpose. So, we used to try to focus, when I, as I said, when I was launching Lynx, we were very focused on employees, and I was very focused on frontline employees. Now we've pivoted to focusing on external people, not part of an organization. And so I think how you're measuring learning is so different, in terms of employees and what kind of impact and what a company. What is step back? What's the strategic focus of the company? Where are they going? What kind of skills? How are you thinking of a workforce transformation? And what are you measuring in terms of people being job-ready? And I think that's a question of coming up with what are the two or three indicators that are going to be important? Like, we need to move people from just think 10 years ago, everybody's going through a digital transformation. Okay, now that feels like something of the 1980s, right?

17:26.86
Eric Stano
Sure.

17:28.77
Sylvie Milverton
Now it's AI transformation. So I think it's a question of saying, like, these are the tools we're no longer using. This is the way people are working. We want to make sure that X percent of the company is able to work in this way and then think of what are good ways of evidence for that. In our model, where we're helping companies basically make an impact in the community to advance, either, as I said, like risk management, marketing, or communications goals, then I think it's a question of what story do you want to tell when you're done? Do we want to be able to say, we went into this immigrant community, we're able to teach 50 people AI skills, such that they could all build their first AI agent? Well, then that's a good way to prove it. Let's see all of that. Or you want to be able to say, these are people that got sponsored education so that someone could get their first full-time job in tech. So I think it's a different; it depends on what is the original goal. But I think for companies, when you're thinking of how to measure and how to look at it, I would say be super simple. I mean, it's so easy when you're thinking like, oh, we have to do a huge skills taxonomy, then we have to do a huge mapping,  you could spend a year just thinking about it. I think it's just sit down and think what are the three things that I want to make sure have happened as a result of this. And then look at that. 

19:05.28
Eric Stano
Right. No, that makes a lot of sense. And actually, again, you've begun to suggest, I think, an answer here, but you just talked about the idea of actually getting maybe away from taxonomies or obsessing about them, and you're simplifying it. But keeping with taxonomies, are there skills, frameworks, or taxonomies that actually help align learning with roles without freezing innovation?

19:32.47
Sylvie Milverton
I mean, I think that's like the most important thing. I think that's what companies could do. I think it's just easy to get mired in like 300 row Excel because we all need just to think of all the soft skills, good leadership, good communication, have a tough conversation, analytical skills, problem solving, all that. But, I had a really interesting conversation with Kelly Palmer, who is very wise in these things. She worked a long time at LinkedIn Learning and at DeGreed. And she shared with me something that I thought was so smart of really just keeping it very simple in the sense of pick the top three competencies. Like if I think like for my startup, we're 15 people, we're running like crazy, launching many things. And so it's like, yeah, all those things are important. But I feel like what's important for us is we need really good skills around communication and transparency. We need very good like organization and project management type skills. And then there's a piece around like the technical part. We're building learning programs. We're launching platform.

20:48.25
Eric Stano
Sure.

20:48.60
Sylvie Milverton
And that's what I would measure against. That's what's important to my company right now. A year from now, that list might be different. Yeah. So I think it's.

21:01.08
Eric Stano
Yeah. And it strikes me, though, that you've also named some pretty evergreen type skills that don't particularly go out of style or make may become more into vogue, given the level of AI's presence in our lives and the likelihood that it'll continue for the future. I think you've named some skills that, as I said, are likely to be valuable for the long term. I want to shift gears again here and talk a little bit about data, fairness, and trust. What fairness checks belong in every dashboard to ensure that learning programs aren't accidentally widening gaps?

21:49.37
Sylvie Milverton
Yeah, I think this is such a good question and so important on so many levels. Well, certainly, I think that one of the big fears about this big AI transformation is who's getting left behind. We have a lot of questions about this, again, because we work with populations external to a company. We spend a lot of time thinking about anonymizing data. If you're sponsoring 50 learners, how much information about those people should you have? Do you have the right to have? We wouldn't want people to feel uncomfortable. Like, sometimes you can't believe that someone's just giving you something of value for free. I get my phone number is online. And so even though we have like a normal channel for a support line. I still, I get phone calls from Deliveroo riders. And the main question they ask me is, is it free? Is it really free? Like, yes, it's, it's really free. And so sometimes people can feel nervous about giving their information. 

22:57.62
Eric Stano
Certainly. 

22:58.49
Sylvie Milverton
Yeah. And I think there's so many questions about access and fairness, and one thing I like about our business model is I feel like these times there's a lot of, I don't know, how would you say it? Political noise around the idea of social impact. And there's a lot of these words that were around equity and fairness have become out of favor. But what I like about what we're doing is that education, I feel like we can all agree on that,  offering education to people is basically a good thing. Like, okay, we can argue about what you're teaching, you can argue about how much money you want to spend on it. But, offering education to people who need to learn important skills, such that they become more productive members of the economy. I think we can all agree on that. And so then I hope part of our role is helping companies be able to offer that to people who have less access. And then we partner with the kind of charities, nonprofits, and associations that serve these populations. And so hopefully through what we're doing, we're helping reduce some of these inequities that are kind of present naturally in the world. 

24:22.58
Eric Stano
Right. And an offshoot of some of these inequities is often in absence of mobility or the deprivation of mobility. And I'm curious, how do you design incentives so managers can support mobility, even if it could be losing some strong performers in their own sphere to other teams or other companies?

24:49.02
Sylvie Milverton
I love this question because, as I said, like at the origin, my inspiration was like, what if companies offer learning beyond job learning? Like help, in fact, be the company that helps somebody leave. And especially if you're focusing on the kinds of jobs where people are going to leave anyway, think like frontline entry-level work, no one's life dream is to spend 30 years riding a bike delivering lunches around London. Like this isn't… the purpose of those jobs is to be a transition. And so just imagine if you're the purpose of the… if you're the company that supports the transition to say, I know you're going to leave. And I hope what it is, is that you stay with me for 18 months instead of two months. It helps me because it's better for me to have people who are more experienced. And it's good for you because I've helped you move on with your life. And then you'll have like a lifelong attachment to our brand. But I think that can also really apply to white-collar jobs, to office jobs, to jobs where you hope somebody will stay. Because if you can really think, rare are the people that are going to work 30 years for the same company. Like that's over. We're going to work five years, seven years, maybe 10. I worked 13 years in one company, and probably I should have worked there a little bit less, like it's good. I loved it. I loved it, which is why I stayed. But if I'm looking back, it's like, oh, having had two company experiences in that time instead of one could have been interesting for me. And so just be the kind of manager who says, I want to get the best out of you for the five, seven years I have you. I want you to remember me so fondly for your whole life because you gave me something great, and then I'm helping you grow into your next role. And life is long. Like I had breakfast this morning with some adored colleagues from 15 years ago, and we just caught right up, and now they're working on things, and we're helping each other. And it's only good. People leave, and then it's just… that's what we should totally only be thinking in that way.

27:05.46
Eric Stano
No, and actually, I find that just a personal reflection. I find that particularly resonant. One, because in fact I was one of those rare people who stayed at a company for 20 years, which I, perhaps, could have done a little bit less and shaken it up a little bit more. I've been a little bit more nimble since then, but I'm currently at a company, Magic, where our CEO consistently reflects on the fact that you might not be here forever. You're likely to move on. And he wants to make the experience here productive, an experience that not only produces the outcomes that we want and our clients want, but also produces something for the employees themselves. He has this notion of people moving through and onto the next thing. But always looking back on this place fondly and thinking about it, and in terms of “I learned something there”. I was productive there. Those are some skills I didn't have prior to and now have, and I'm able to apply elsewhere. So I find all of your comments there really sort of personally, yeah, relevant.

28:11.96
Sylvie Milverton
Well, the iconic story about that is the story of McDonald's launching the Archways for Opportunity program in the US, where they basically sponsor undergraduate education for all their workers in all of their stores. And by doing that, they were able to change the positioning of McDonald's from a dead-end job to your best first job.

28:36.77
Eric Stano
Right.

28:39.22
Sylvie Milverton
And that is so powerful because it was an acknowledgement that few are the people who will end up working in McDonald's corporate. Many, many are the ones that will work in all of these restaurants in these fast food restaurant chains. And then you have that lifelong association, and that you're leveraging the fact that it's a short time that you'll be there. And you turn that short time into an advantage instead of a negative. And to me, when you think, again, the image we had of McDonald's  when we were teenagers, was so different to

29:13.49
Eric Stano
Right, right. Right, right.

29:14.97
Sylvie Milverton
How one would think about it now? And my husband, for example, that was his first job. He's Australian, and he was working at the busiest McDonald's in Australia at the time in Surfers Paradise. And he still, that changed his life. He bought his first car. I mean, that was his first savings. And that's such a positive memory he has. And it's all for that attitude of like, we will invest in education to help people grow and then move on.

29:41.08
Eric Stano
Yeah, well, that's wonderful. And I appreciate the reminder of the McDonald's story. I had forgotten that. It's been a long time since I thought about it. My first job was not at McDonald's, was actually in the Lego factory working on an assembly line, but that's a story for another time, perhaps. So, okay, now we have the perhaps preciously titled lightning round, which my team likes to put towards the conclusion of these conversations. So if you don't mind, I'm going to just rattle off a few questions, and you answer with whatever comes to mind first. And hopefully, I don't catch you too off guard with these. So first one, one pilot design that you trust for an early read on impact.

30:32.79
Sylvie Milverton
Maybe like a 6 to 12 week pilot program where learners have to complete a real work project reviewed by their manager or their mentor, depending on the case. And that way, you get a fast, good read on if they learn something and if they're able to apply it.

30:55.86
Eric Stano
Very nicely done because that was actually the first time I was reading that question. My team supplies me with these, and I realized one, it's not even a question, it's just a statement. And as I said it, I was like, I understood what all of those words mean, just not particularly in that order. So I'm glad it resonated with you, and you were able to respond. Statement number two: one habit that reliably turns data into decisions.

31:24.82
Sylvie Milverton
I would say always thinking what is important, what matters, what can we learn from this number, and what is the most important – what is this – what is the outcome that this data is showing us? And based on this, what can I change? And constantly checking in what are your six numbers, checking in on them every week, and knowing what decision you can make based on each number.

31:55.22
Eric Stano
Again, nicely done. Stuck the landing here. And I like this last one, and it is the last one, because it sort of sounds like it's complaining, but it's not. One outcome claim you wish our industry would stop making.

32:10.94
Sylvie Milverton
Maybe that this one course or that this one program will transform your life or transform your career. I think it can, but I think the reality is that learning is now just one part of it, and that a whole series of other skills around networking, positioning yourself, talking to people, finding a job. I think that before, education was a bigger piece of the puzzle. And now I think that's necessary. But the harder part is cutting through all the noise to really get mobility, and meet people, and get a job.

32:52.95
Eric Stano
It's fabulous. Again, appreciate you enduring a lightning round. I always find them to be a little precious, but they are revealing, which is why the team inserts those questions into my notes. Well, listen, Sylvie, I really appreciate you spending some time today. I think that these reflections have really been surprising and lovely, and resonant. And what I'd like to ask is just, are there any final thoughts that you would have from your particular perch in the educational ecosystem? Any final thoughts that you'd like to share with our listeners?

33:31.48
Sylvie Milverton
Just to say what a privilege it is to work in education all these years. There's other ways, easier ways to make money, easier ways to change people's behavior. But I mean, I think there's a lot of key big problems in the world, climate change, health, and education. And I just think, what a privilege we have all of us, whether it's developing tools, supporting companies, or supporting learners. Yeah, it's just an amazing, yeah, amazing career, an amazing privilege to be able to do this work

34:04.89
Eric Stano
I couldn't agree more, having been in educational publishing and product development since 92, which now gives you a sense of my real age. Yeah, I do find it also to be a privilege, and it's something that animates me. So I appreciate the fact that we're on the same page there. And that is just another reason why I enjoyed this conversation. So thank you again.

34:27.19
Sylvie Milverton
And our Gen X vibes connecting us.

34:29.22
Eric Stano
All right. Our Gen X vibes, and we suppressed the apathy that normally comes with that moniker. So that's good. Well, listen, Sylvie, I really appreciate the time again today, and you're sharing your thoughts, and it was great to talk with you.

34:47.58
Sylvie Milverton
Thanks for having me.

34:49.42
Eric Stano
All right, take care, and thank you to our listeners. This has been Tech in EdTech.