00:02.55

Zahra 

Hi everyone. Welcome to another episode of Tech in EdTech, the show where we explore how technology can power teaching and learning at scale. I'm Zahra, and I'll be guiding the conversation. Today, we're getting into XR, extended reality, and what it actually takes to make it work beyond the pilot stage. I'm joined today by Bharani Rajakumar, founder of Transfr. Bharani built Transfr around a pretty clear conviction that immersive simulation-based training can be a real pathway into careers, not just a novelty. Transfr works with school districts, community colleges, and workforce organizations across the country to train people for jobs in healthcare, manufacturing, skilled trades, and much more. Bharani, welcome to Tech in EdTech. Great to have you here.

Bharani   00:52.25

Yes, thank you for having me.

Zahra   00:54.11

Excited for the conversation. I'd love to start for you to tell us a little bit about yourself and your journey of how you got into the learning space.

Bharani   01:03.38

Yeah, so I got into the learning space based on some personal experiences. I grew up in a family where I watched my parents raise a family of four on $35,000 a year. So, I had to get my first job when I was 16 years old so I could contribute. It was in fast food. It wasn't anything glamorous, but I really appreciated the opportunity to earn a paycheck. And I thought it was absolutely amazing. You know, back then, you'd walk to the bank with your check in hand, and you'd sign the back of it, and you'd cash it. And it was a really fascinating thing to see, like, oh my gosh, like I earned that. So that was an empowering thing. You know, I ended up working in finance and moved to New York City, and I was just amazed by the resources that were available in the city and across America. But, I also at the same time knew that resources weren't equally accessible to everybody because the middle school and high school that I went to were like ninety percent free and reduced lunch. And what I wanted to do is get into education to help, kind of, solve that problem and make sure that high-quality learning experiences were available and accessible to everyone who wanted to learn. Because I believe that when you equip and empower people, they're very likely to kind of be on this trajectory of moving upward in life. And so, Transfr has a mission of helping everyone get on a pathway to upward mobility, and we do that by helping them, you know, prepare for their first employment opportunity.

Zahra   02:55.80

Really appreciate you sharing that story and that personal path. That's great. And I love the phrase equip and empower students. So, as you built Transfr around this upward mobility and this skills pathway beyond just that wow factor, and you know, gamification and things like that - that are popular, what was your total vision, you know, behind that? You mentioned the mission of Transfr, but anything more particular about how it developed?

Bharani   03:25.94

Yeah, well, I think kind of being in the communities that I was in, yeah, you know, I was both in like kind of these high poverty type of communities where it was a lot of self-doubt, a lot of criticism, just a lot of, you know, folks that didn't feel like they were they were allowed to be part of the rest of society. At the same time, I was in academically accelerated programs where you know people felt like they were the creme de la creme, and they had access to anything and everything that they would want. So, kind of had one foot in both worlds. And so, with Transfr, really the focus of using XR as a medium is to be able to put on the headset and, you know, be in an environment where it's you and the environment, and you get to kind of feel like you can be successful. You get to try a variety of things that you might have not thought possible, and kind of discover the things that you can be good at and the things that you like. And so, what is common for us to hear is that people go through the experience and they have an enjoyable experience and they say, " Holy cow”, like that was the first time I've ever done anything like that.

Zahra   04:48.73

Mm-hmm.

Bharani   04:51.84

And when they say that, we think you mean like virtual reality or XR? And they're like, no, like that's the first time like I've done something by myself and been successful at it. In Transfr, there's a digital coach that kind of walks you through what you have to do with no judgment. And I think that it's interesting because people constantly feel like they're being judged. And I think there's like a paranoia in some ways, in some communities, and the value of being in a judgment-free simulation is that your confidence goes up after you accomplish things, and the whole premise of the company is that you accomplish them in a simulated world, your confidence goes up, and then you do them in real life.

Zahra   05:43.55

I really love that framing. That's great. So XR has had a really interesting pathway. I feel like when VR first came out, it was more on that experimental side. It was pretty costly. You know, then we led into this kind of hype error with new headsets and kind of the shiny new thing. There was, you know, some grant funding and stuff like that. So some schools and different industries purchased it. And then, you know, I think there was that great momentum. And I felt, feel like there might have been there was a little bit of a lull. Headsets got dusty. People didn't implement it properly. And we'll get it, and we'll deep dive into that implementation piece a bit. But I feel like we're back into that hot moment, and some folks calling it the future of education. And for the reasons… a lot of the reasons you just described of how powerful it is with this engagement and this feeling of this wow factor of success, and that I can accomplish anything. What gaps do you think right now stand out most to you between that industry narrative and what customers are dealing with right now?

Bharani   06:52.54

So, I think in the early days of all this hardware, like there was just an enormous amount of friction. You know, you had to have an Alienware PC, you had to have a wired connection, sensors, all that stuff. So that has been greatly reduced. So now it's just a wireless device that you can just put on your device on your head or over your eyes. But still, there's, you know, compared with the ease of use of a web app or a mobile app, there's still a meaningful amount of friction. First of all, you just need a different hardware. You need the device. Then, there's controllers, then being able to log in and be connected to Wi-Fi. So, you know, when one of the challenges, I think, when you work in the education space is, the Wi-Fi can be of varying strength depending on where you are in the country and sometimes depending on where you are in the building. And that's a real challenge point of friction when using this type of technology, especially if you've got to like download the latest and greatest simulation.

Bharani   08:11.54

So I think the other barrier here is that a lot of educators will look at the hardware and just say, look, like I have no idea how to operate that, and then it doesn't get touched, right? So there has to be like a real, meaningful reward for going through the process of setting up the hardware and using it. And so, for us, we focus on the classroom to career pathway, which means you know you're able to do career exploration, explore a variety of occupations across all 14 CTE career clusters, and in some cases, it means training for an actual employment opportunity. So, I think VR still has room to develop and to become more frictionless, but people do generally agree that the heightened sensation of being in a simulation is just more engaging than watching a traditional video.

Zahra   09:18.93

100%. And I like the that reward piece of connecting it to the classroom into the specific career. And I want to dive into a little bit more about implementation and where you think it's stalling the most in current adoption. you know what breaks first? Is it, you know, of course, with any tech adoption, like you mentioned, Wi-Fi is an issue, and just the devices, you know all these things that you need. But is there anything else specific you want to point out that it's taking us this long to get to a heavier adoption phase?

Bharani   09:53.46

I think it comes down to the reward, right? I mean, at the end of the day, it's a cool experience for sure, but it has to be something that people can't live without. And so, in some use cases, that is true. For example, we work with nonprofits that serve the justice-impacted population. So, people who are formerly incarcerated, re-entry programs, and in those instances, you know, there's a lot of individuals that can't get an interview or can't get on-the-job experience. So, using virtual reality as a way to um build their knowledge, their skills, their confidence is like a really big deal. It's a real powerful way to prepare them for an interview with a real employer. And so, that reward is big enough for that use case to succeed. You know, the classroom, like a traditional K-12 classroom, is a little different. Everything revolves around standardized tests. And there are lots of rules and regulations about how classroom time can and cannot be used and how much classroom time there is. So, in fact, it might be easier to work with people like after school because there are just fewer rules. So, it really depends on, like, the technology itself is just unequivocally getting better. Like that's not even an argument, like, you know, it's way better today than it was, you know, three years ago. But then, deploying it in education, it's really going to come down to like the use case that you're focused on and the segment that you're focused on, because every segment is different.

Zahra   11:48.44

Right. Yeah. I mean, there's so many great creative use cases. I love the use case for incarceration and really empower them for re-entry and getting back into the into the workforce. And after school, and I guess, you know, I had this conversation on career exploration a while back with Tallo, and it connects to how much like in the K-12 system are really starting to integrate that career pathway. And yeah, do you, if it's not integrated and then they're not seeing it, or maybe it's just more, there's just so much going on. It's hard to find that path of where this fits in, but I like that after school, because of the real reward is focusing on the student and what their options are for career. And they don't, you know, they don't even know what's out there, or what's possible. And this is a way to explore that and see what else they're good at. I think that's amazing.

Bharani   12:40.98

Yeah, I agree. And I think what's really powerful about it is that it works very well with some of our highest need populations. So going back to the different communities I was talking about, there's high, let's say, poverty communities and communities where they've got access to all the resources. It is, you know, we just hear over and over again for those individual learner students that, that aren't part of the traditional system, let's say, like they're not, not necessarily in a magnet program and things like that. Like, this is a really, really powerful way for them to learn about things that they've never been exposed to. You know, all people are influenced by the folks that they spend the most amount of time with. And so, if you don't have anybody in your family that, you know, works in healthcare or works in advanced manufacturing and that stuff, you might be totally oblivious that those opportunities exist, and they may not necessarily, not everyone, not every opportunity requires a four-year degree or take it on student loan debt. And this just gives people the opportunity to explore that those options that they may have not known existed. And the reason that is important because if you're coming from a high need area,  you know, it's not uncommon to feel like there is no hope. There is no help. There is no way forward. And this definitely excites people when they see that they've got an opportunity to move upward and onward.

Zahra   14:38.62

Yeah, that's really, really good, important points. And I think it speaks a lot to kind of what you're trying to accomplish at Transfr and your mission as far as that reach and what the possibilities are here. So I want to dive in a bit to that as far as creating these real-world scenarios. And, you know, of course, it's an amazing impact, and there are so many things, but the immersion itself doesn't necessarily create competence. And if we're talking specifically and in learning institutions, what do you think, what turns a simulation from something that's, you know, is visually impressive and and giving students that wow moment to actually improving the world performance?

Bharani   15:26.58

Well, first and foremost, like the experience should be based on something that, if we're talking about skill development, that is relevant in the real world. So, you certainly want to be modeling the experience after things that people do on the job or as part of an apprenticeship program, or you know, as part of safety training. So that's number one. Number two, you know, a lot of these kinds of skills were previously taught using traditional e-learning, and then folks would sit down and, you know, pass an exam to get a credential. So, you want to make sure you have the tasks that are aligned to credentials because if you're working in education, you know, a lot of times things are not funded unless they do align with existing credentials. So those are some pretty straightforward and basic things that can be done to make sure that you move beyond the wow factor to something that can be utilized in the real world. Outside of that, you know I would say what really matters is focusing on what are like common mistakes and having a deep understanding of what are the common mistakes that people make when they're on the job or when they're new to a certain occupation and training for that. So, we have this concept of a digital coach. So, there's someone that just, you know, talks to you through the inside entire experience to help guide you through. And that's to just make sure that you're learning the things that we, you know, we need you to learn in order to do well to get the credential or in the interview. So, I think those are three important things that should be part of any experience. If you're really focused on helping folks master a skill.

Zahra   17:40.28

Yeah, I think it's a perfect place to, you know, I talk about this a lot with, you know, health simulations and things. It's the perfect place to try every scenario, right? Like it's a lower risk before you get into that real-world scenario. You get to make mistakes and do different things. So thinking about that a bit more, there you know there's an assumption, and I think for very bad reasons, as you were saying, that more realistic is better, and particularly in a lot of the training and things you're talking about. But how do you decide how much fidelity actually matters before the complexity stops adding learning value? Like, is there a point there?

Bharani   18:22.71

I think from the customer's perspective, it comes down to cost. Especially in education and training, if the difference is spending two or three times as much to get it to be perfect versus, you know, just having something that that gets the job done and helps people acquire the skills and um and move forward in their learning, they're usually going to choose the path that gets the job done. Because, you know, there are really powerful and expensive headsets or these high-quality game engines that can produce things that just look completely lifelike.

Zahra   19:19.38

Yeah.

Bharani   19:19.67

But if it's going to cost three to five times more than, like, let's say something that doesn't require all that technology, people are going to pick the lower cost option, I think.

Zahra   19:35.06

Yeah, and there's still so many benefits, but it doesn't need to be like totally immersed in the room. And on the flip side, I think a lot of providers are now trying to push more content in XR because it sounds innovative. This is a cool thing to do. Do you find that there's more skills that genuinely benefit more from the medium and some that are more forced?

Bharani   20:14.81

That is a good question. One of the things that you always hear folks talk about in the world of skills is soft skills or executive function.

Zahra   20:29.04

Mm-hmm.

Bharani   20:29.50

And I think that is one of those areas where it does not necessarily have to be done using XR if it can be done just as well using a mobile phone or mobile device, right? And so, I think that's one of the areas that from my perspective, like it is certainly interesting when it's in virtual reality, but that's not the only medium that you can do that in, versus if you are, you know, transporting someone to a hospital so they can work on a patient, or transporting them to a construction site where it's super dangerous. Like that is where, you know, virtual reality is like really powerful.

Zahra   21:18.42

Yeah, that's interesting because I've gotten that question a lot recently, more on the, like, just speaking with the healthcare side of folks asking for, “Oh, we need those patient communication skills, those interactive skills.” And I think it's a really good point you bring up, like, you don't necessarily need that medium to like talk, practice communication. You could do that on a phone. You can do that. But I guess it's just the feeling like you're in the room with the patient or something like that. Of course, it's going to help. But you know, if you're trying to decide where to implement and where not, if there's different barriers. So I want to switch gears a little bit to dive in a little bit more on the technical side. So once the headset arrives, you know, the work begins. And of course, any technology implementation, there's going to be hurdles. You talked about a few of them already, but there's a technical hurdles, logistical ones, and even political hurdles. Is the end user, you know, actually part of the buying decision? And then, you know, of course, the financial hurdle. Which one do you think, or is there one that kills the momentum most?

Bharani   22:35.00

Yeah, that is a good question. I think the one that probably creates the most friction is how do I integrate this into my day-to-day, right? Like, people generally think that XR is like a really cool technology, really cool medium. But you know, it can't be something that folks have to like totally change the way that they go about their day or go about their class or go about their teaching. Because if it is, if it does become that, then they're not going to use it. So there is a lot of money that is spent on workforce development and Title I and things like that. But, at the end of the day, you know, the educators or the ones on the ground floor. They're the ones that have the most contact with the learners. And so, if they don't feel that it's something ridiculously easy to use, they're not gonna use it. And if they're not going to use it, it's not gonna get funded.

Zahra   23:55.64

Is there anything else you would recommend before, like a district or college, or any workforce provider launches? What internally needs to happen for, you know, say a pilot goes well, then, then what's next?  What needs to align then to keep it going?

Bharani   24:17.08

There's got to be someone whose responsibility or whose job it is to execute the program, right? If nobody owns the implementation, you know it's not going to be implemented. And XR is still a new-ish technology in education. And so it's not like there's like a dedicated role for this. You know, like there's always going to be a dedicated role for teaching math or teaching science. But there's not a dedicated role for making sure everyone has this completely connected experience from exploring careers to enrolling in a pathway and ultimately, you know, getting in an interview with an employer. There's different roles from counselors to teachers to, you know, people who run career fairs and stuff like that. But there isn't like one person that owns the entire thing end-to-end.

Zahra   25:31.16

Yeah, and I guess it's being clear on the expectations from the beginning, right? Because there's a lot of times you know wanting it to do everything or thinking it's… you're going to spend all this money, you're going to do this. So like, well, I need to prove this ROI. And unless you set real clear goals and expectations and how it's going to be used and where, um then you can start being able to track that engagement and what that retention and those outcomes look like. And that accountability. And I think you already, you know got to one of my questions of where it's accountable. And I think, where you know, wherever it's decided, it kind of needs to be all in as far as where and clear on what that is.

Bharani   26:21.04

Yeah, totally.

Zahra   26:23.35

And you've said, you know, I've heard you mentioned before that XR alone doesn't solve that last-mile problem. And when a learner then exits the simulation, they have that wow moment, they get really excited, rejuvenated about what the possibilities are. What's the next step? What needs to still happen for that experience to translate into a real opportunity?

Bharani   26:49.91

You have to have the employer buy-in up front, right? Like if there are no employers involved in designing the program or implementing the program, there's no connection between the classroom and the career. Like it's just like a purely academic thing at that point, if there's no employers involved. So that is definitely the end-all, be-all. I would say is having employers participate in selecting which simulations are relevant and helping learners kind of see what the point of all the learning is. Like, hey, at the end of the day, like, these are the opportunities that exist in the community and the pathways and occupations that are available when you finish.

Zahra   27:42.97

Yeah, that connection to community and what's going on in that learner's full ecosystem, what's around them. I've been to recent conferences and things like that, and you've got to have… if you're building out this program without talking to the employers and the things and the folks in your area, the actual jobs that are available in the area, then there's a disconnect with what students are learning and what their expectations will be once leaving.

Bharani   28:15.28

Yep.

Zahra   28:20.12

So let's talk about what's next for XR. You've clearly made moves to reduce hardware dependence with the launch of TransfrTech, a web application. How do you think that balancing the immersive fidelity of VR against accessibility and scale that browser-based tools can offer? Where does that line sit for you right now?

Bharani   28:43.67

Yeah, so Transfr Tech was something that we developed to make sure that conversation around career exploration and training kind of continued outside of the headset. So, and we also added things like financial literacy and all, and things that are related to selecting a career and certainly related to your decisions you make about your pathway to upward mobility. And not all those learning experiences require an immersive hands-on experience. And so that's why we can use mobiles and laptops and things of that nature, more like traditional e-learning type of technologies. But, along with that, you can kind of implement the standard kind of screen readers, and things like that help address some of the accessibility issues that are really needed to drive adoption. I think one of the challenges, though, is that watching things on a 2D screen it's just a different level of engagement than, kind of, being in the environment and having that real-time interaction with objects and learning from your mistakes in real time. So while I think the 2D screen is really powerful for like theory-based knowledge and that kind of content, it's the only thing better than a simulated hands-on experience is the real thing. The reason the simulated hands-on experience works and is valuable is because sometimes a real thing isn't accessible. Like, especially if you're, let's say, you're under 18 or you are uninsured and don't have the safety knowledge or tools or anything to climb on top of a wireless tower, a broadband tower. So I think having a connected experience between mobile web and the headset is really important. It's going to be impossible to kind of replace that immersive experience.

Zahra   31:21.91

Of course, but I like how you know the accessibility, of course, yeah, at Magic we love you know making it inclusive, and you're just trying to add more learners to what who might not be able to experience the full XR experience. So if we talk about what it looks like down the road. So if we strip away both this utopian and doom narratives like both extremes, where do you see XR becoming more normal, like an unremarkable part of education and workforce training over the next three years?

Bharani   32:01.08

I do think the focus right now is on opportunities that do not require a four-year degree, where you've got like rapid training programs. There is a real demand right now for roles in advanced manufacturing, the skilled trades, you know, electricians, that kind of thing. And employers don't have two to four years to wait to develop the workforce. You know, there's all kinds of projects that are going on, whether it's broadband, installing broadband for rural America, or building data centers that power AI. I mean, there's just a huge need for folks with these skills sets right now. And that's where XR, as a medium, can be really powerful to help, you know, rapidly train someone to maybe not be an expert, but to be good enough to be employable. And once they're employable, employers kind of continue the training on the job.

Zahra   33:13.37

Absolutely agree. That's great. Okay, we're at the lightning round. I just have a few set of questions here. So go ahead and fire out whatever comes to mind.

Bharani   33:27.81

All right.

Zahra   33:29.24

Okay, what's one XR myth you'd like to retire immediately?

Bharani   33:53.34

I would say the maybe the biggest myth is that it will make you vomit and give you vertigo. I mean, we work with lots of individuals who kind of think that and feel that, or maybe they get motion sickness, but when they use our experience, it's fine. And so, I think it really does come down to the production quality and what the experience is, because if your experience is you put on the headset and you're going for a roller coaster ride, like that's going to make a lot of people nauseous. But if your experience is you're putting on the headset and you're learning how to bend conduit, that's a lot different. So, I would say the number one myth is that, you know, you put on the headset and it's going to make you puke. It may, but it probably depends on, you know, who the production quality of what you're experiencing.

Zahra   34:52.91

Great. Yeah, I love that one. Really good one. I get motion sickness, but I've never felt that when I've had a headset on. So, what's one buyer question that instantly tells you they understand the category?

Bharani   35:13.66

Which employers do you think we can bring to the table that this will apply to? Which occupations is this going to be the most effective for?

Zahra   35:33.17

Perfect. One thing the industry still overestimates about XR.

Bharani   35:45.25

The ease of use. I think when folks are doing a demonstration, and there's someone there helping you go through the process, you know, people are totally enamored with the experience, and so that might lead to a purchase. But if you don't have a dedicated team member who owns the outcome end-to-end and making sure that it's implemented properly, you know things can fall apart.

Zahra   36:19.58

And one thing it still underestimates about implementation.

Bharani   36:24.86

Just the magnitude of change it can drive, like the speed at which it can help somebody become ramped up and productive and employable, is like massively underestimated.

Zahra   36:35.73

Great. You know, wrapping things up here, if a district college or a workforce provider wants to make, say, one smarter decision this year on XR, what do you think that should be?

Bharani   36:51.87

It should be around how do you create space to innovate a new type of program. What I mean by that is education is always hamstrung by all these rules and regulations to get a certificate, and you know, qualify for credential of value, and pass tests and stuff like that. Employers don't care about any of that stuff. They want to know that someone is ready to work, which means that they're self-motivated, they're a good communicator, and they're reliable. And that stuff doesn't show up on a credential. And so being able to rethink um what a program looks like in your building or in your community that helps establish trust with the employer so that they want to come back, you know, month after month or semester after semester, year after year, and have that recruiting pipeline. I mean, that would be a powerful role for education to play.

Zahra   38:06.65

Amazing. Love that answer. I think that is a great place to end here. Thank you so much, Bharani.

Bharani   38:14.23

Hey, thank you. Thanks for having me.

Zahra   38:15.86

Absolutely. So that's a wrap on today's episode of Tech in EdTech. Huge thanks to Bharani for a candid conversation on what it actually takes to make immersive learning work past the demo, past the pilot, and into something that moves people into real careers. We'll drop the link in the show notes. This episode was useful. Please follow or subscribe. I'm Zahra, and this is Tech in EdTech. See you next time.